CGT lawsuit filed.
03-25-2006, 09:58 PM
#181
Good points to be sure. I would not deny the plaintiff their day in court but, I do believe "loser pays" tort reform would put an end to many lawsuits that seek nothing more than a big payday while ignoring personal responsibility, common sense and respect for the inherent dangers of motorsport.
MC
MC
Last edited by H20NOO; 03-25-2006 at 10:14 PM.
03-25-2006, 10:03 PM
#182
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by H20NOO
Good points to be sure. I would not deny the plaintiff their day in court but, I do believe "loser pays" tort reform would put an end to many lawsuits that seek nothing more than a big payday while ignoring personally responsibility, common sense and respect for the inherent dangers of motorsport.
MC
MC
03-26-2006, 06:18 AM
#183
Rennlist Member
I cuncur with "loser pays". The risk/reward ratio is now very skewed in favor of PI attorneys.
I do a fair amount of consulting in the area of medical malpractice, where most of the cases I review do have merit. (I do one or two a year, and have for 27 years) Some need to be filed just to find out. (You can't get the information you need absent subpoena, and for that you need to file.)
That being said, when I've told the plaintiff attorney that a case is baseless, it has been routinely dropped. Sometimes, I have had to explain that to the family as well.
On the other hand, I've seen surprising instances of flagrant negligence (sometimes boardering on the edge of criminal activity) from colleagues who violently protest their inclusion in a suit. More often than not, the jury system winds up with something approximating justice. In fact, I'd rather trust my fatre to a jury than a judge- some of those those guys(and gals) can be very unpredictable. I don't like lawsuits either (I've been named 4 times, and completely exonerated before trial in all 4), but it is the only way for facts to come to light. Of course, a lot of the secret motive is cash for relatives who care a lot more after the fact than before.AS
I do a fair amount of consulting in the area of medical malpractice, where most of the cases I review do have merit. (I do one or two a year, and have for 27 years) Some need to be filed just to find out. (You can't get the information you need absent subpoena, and for that you need to file.)
That being said, when I've told the plaintiff attorney that a case is baseless, it has been routinely dropped. Sometimes, I have had to explain that to the family as well.
On the other hand, I've seen surprising instances of flagrant negligence (sometimes boardering on the edge of criminal activity) from colleagues who violently protest their inclusion in a suit. More often than not, the jury system winds up with something approximating justice. In fact, I'd rather trust my fatre to a jury than a judge- some of those those guys(and gals) can be very unpredictable. I don't like lawsuits either (I've been named 4 times, and completely exonerated before trial in all 4), but it is the only way for facts to come to light. Of course, a lot of the secret motive is cash for relatives who care a lot more after the fact than before.AS
03-27-2006, 12:34 PM
#184
It was my fault, NOT the CGTs!
Originally Posted by Alexander Stemer
Is the inference that concern and envy are linked in this case? Sometimes, a rose by any other name is just a rose. Just concern, not envy.
Time will certainly clarify the issue. If the driver had not died, what would he have said? I think he'd want to know that the car didn't let him down. If you think the assertion of a problem lying with the car is stupid, so is the assertion that it's with the driver. Nobody knows.
I fully accept the statements of knowledgeable owners that their car is fine. Maybe they all are, or maybe there is something ideosynchratic.
A post on 6 speed by an owner describes going sideways with throttle application going over a bridge. No snow mentioned, no water mentioned.He doesn't say what gear, but it was in traffic, so apparantly not first. That seems a little tricky. AS
Time will certainly clarify the issue. If the driver had not died, what would he have said? I think he'd want to know that the car didn't let him down. If you think the assertion of a problem lying with the car is stupid, so is the assertion that it's with the driver. Nobody knows.
I fully accept the statements of knowledgeable owners that their car is fine. Maybe they all are, or maybe there is something ideosynchratic.
A post on 6 speed by an owner describes going sideways with throttle application going over a bridge. No snow mentioned, no water mentioned.He doesn't say what gear, but it was in traffic, so apparantly not first. That seems a little tricky. AS
Doc... Doc... Doc.... What am I going to do with you guys (physcians and lawyers) Don't you all read prescriptions (my post) right? I'm the dumb *** (self admitted) guy who lost it a little sideways going over the bridge one day with my CGT. Two things are wrong with your statements. First, you left out some very important parts of my post. My post in part was as follows: 
Dario and others, Since I have one, I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. They're obviously very powerful and on the edge of being the so-called 'race car on the street!' One night coming home from a restaurant, (I did have some wine), some a-hole was doing the challenge rountine and being a dumb ***, I responded by goosing the throttle a little too much going over a freeway bridge. She car started going sideways on me! Straightened my *** out real quick! No more Rambo stuff for me! 
Doc, as you'll note, I said I had some wine to drink. Let's put it this way, if an Officer of the Law would have pulled me over for whatever and asked me for a DUI blow test, his next following words would have been..... "Congratulations Sir, You've just had HIGH score for the day and for that you the winner of a wondeful surprise, an overnight stay in our facility at the public's expense!" Secondly, I was going home as I stated, and this punk pulls up next to me and challenges my ***. I say to myself and my girlfriend, self, this little s _ _ t is not going to make a monkey out of me! So I shifted into second and gave her a goose and that's when she drifted sideways. Brilliant... just brilliant! It was probably 10 or 11 at night (a cool night) and I'm sure bridge temps are colder than road surfaces and here I am thinking I'm Mario Andretti! Hell Doc, it was MY fault.... NOT the CGTs!Ben and his passenger (may they R.I.P.) were where they were supposed to be when he wanted to race his car.... on a race track! It was an absolutely horrible, tragic accident. But things like that happen every now and then. Look what happened yesterday at the IRL warm-ups.
In Ben's case, from a post or two that I read, it was stated that a Ferrari cut in front of him and he lost it for some reason. That happens all the time on NASCAR! Nothing that I have read so far indicates that Ben was anything else but a great guy enjoying the love of his car in a confined, sanctioned race track where he was doing what men and (women?) have been doing since the 'Chariot Races' of the Roman Empire. Please don't point fingers at the Carrera GT. She's a wonderful car that, like any car of her caliper, needs to be respected and appreciated! Michael
p.s. Doc, I took it easy on you because another member, ICON, said you were a pretty nice guy. I hope he was right. If you wanna take a retaliatory shot at me, go ahead. ICON already nailed me on an another forum. I can take it! Besides, we're pretty good friends now. I think?
03-27-2006, 12:45 PM
#185
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by magwheel
Doc, as you'll note, I said I had some wine to drink. Let's put it this way, if an Officer of the Law would have pulled me over for whatever and asked me for a DUI blow test, his next following words would have been..... "Congratulations Sir, You've just had HIGH score for the day and for that you the winner of a wondeful surprise, an overnight stay in our facility at the public's expense!"
03-27-2006, 12:53 PM
#186
Originally Posted by LUISJR993
Why must the fact that you were driving your Carrera GT drunk be posted on a public forum? It takes away some of your credibility IMO.
03-27-2006, 01:27 PM
#187
Still plays with cars.
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Mag- doesn't the C-GT have traction control? Was it turned off? Personally, I don't see how getting the car sideways demonstrates a flaw in anything but the driver. My GT2 could be sent sideways in low gears if one pushed the throttle too abruptly. Big power,torque and a limited slip differential makes it almost a sure thing.
Based on my years of teaching at DE, too many drivers don't know how to handle high performance cars. It takes a lot of finesse, something that does not come naturally to men. Try telling a Type A personality overachiever who buys an expensive car that he needs to learn how to drive it! Our local race track has seen a lot of expensive toys crashed by guys who did not feel they needed training.
Regards,
Based on my years of teaching at DE, too many drivers don't know how to handle high performance cars. It takes a lot of finesse, something that does not come naturally to men. Try telling a Type A personality overachiever who buys an expensive car that he needs to learn how to drive it! Our local race track has seen a lot of expensive toys crashed by guys who did not feel they needed training.
Regards,
03-27-2006, 02:12 PM
#188
Originally Posted by Bob Rouleau
Mag- doesn't the C-GT have traction control? Was it turned off? Personally, I don't see how getting the car sideways demonstrates a flaw in anything but the driver. My GT2 could be sent sideways in low gears if one pushed the throttle too abruptly. Big power,torque and a limited slip differential makes it almost a sure thing.
Based on my years of teaching at DE, too many drivers don't know how to handle high performance cars. It takes a lot of finesse, something that does not come naturally to men. Try telling a Type A personality overachiever who buys an expensive car that he needs to learn how to drive it! Our local race track has seen a lot of expensive toys crashed by guys who did not feel they needed training.
Regards,
Based on my years of teaching at DE, too many drivers don't know how to handle high performance cars. It takes a lot of finesse, something that does not come naturally to men. Try telling a Type A personality overachiever who buys an expensive car that he needs to learn how to drive it! Our local race track has seen a lot of expensive toys crashed by guys who did not feel they needed training.
Regards,
Unfortunately, I probably fit in the category you mentioned of "too many drivers don't know how to handle high performance cars." Not that I'm a putz or candy a _ _ and can't drive the car at all, but mostly because I don't take the time to really know my cars inside and out. Plus... I'm not a daredevil and I keep her under control. The fastest I've ever gone so far in the CGT is only 110. Get a lot of razzing for being a 'chicken s _ _ t' but so what!
I'll keep the car in the speed range I feel comfortable with and one that won't get me or anyone else on the road in trouble! Michael
03-27-2006, 04:10 PM
#189
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My driving got caught up "In the moment"
Michael, no worries I appreciate your honesty.
My dumbest driving move ever was in front of a whole bunch of fellow
Rennlister's last year in Wisconsin. Pulled a real boner passing everyone
on a 2-lane (My CGT buddy in the passenger seat no less) and then having to
stab the brakes in order to avoid hitting a huge diesel/motorhome !!!!
Thank G__ for the fantastic ABS/PSM and all other Nanny devices that saved our butts!!!!
I felt sick for 3-4 hours--and learned my lesson, period. All the fellow Porsche/
Lambo guys were kind enough not to say a thing--they knew that I knew
what I had done.
Marty K.
My dumbest driving move ever was in front of a whole bunch of fellow
Rennlister's last year in Wisconsin. Pulled a real boner passing everyone
on a 2-lane (My CGT buddy in the passenger seat no less) and then having to
stab the brakes in order to avoid hitting a huge diesel/motorhome !!!!
Thank G__ for the fantastic ABS/PSM and all other Nanny devices that saved our butts!!!!
I felt sick for 3-4 hours--and learned my lesson, period. All the fellow Porsche/
Lambo guys were kind enough not to say a thing--they knew that I knew
what I had done.
Marty K.
03-27-2006, 05:00 PM
#190
Burning Brakes
Hi All,
I've just spent a long time reading through this thread and there are several sad points and a very sad one.
It is sad that some car loving guys were killed in a track accident in a mega car.
It is sad that several families are hurt by this.
It is very sad that the issue is "who is liable"
In a recent case here one Porsche club driver sued the porsche club deutschland, the other competitor who hit him and the track owners for a incident in a regularity event where his car was written off. The Judge asked the guy was he in a race - the guy said no - he was in a regularity event. The Judge asked if he knew he was on a track, yes, if he was wearing a crash helmet, yes, if he has signed anything in the form of a waiver, yes, and then the judge basically told the guy to get lost and stop wasting everyones time.
The legal point simply was the guy knew what he was getting into and there was no way, after it goes sour, that he could claim innocence and seek redress from others.
The basis of the current US legal system seems to be you can seek redress from anyone or anything by declaring them negligent. In Germany the lady with the coffee between her legs would have been charged with dangerous driving. The issue about the coffee being hotter than it should be does not overrule the fact that she was stupid to put it between her legs.
In the US you've gone too far. Someone said that the lawyer must do his best to get the result the client wants....unfortunately clever lawyers seem to have succeded in winning judgements even if the client wishes were stupid. The one point that is lost here is personal responsibility.
Can you ever put common sense back into your legal system ???
It would make insurance cheaper for all of you.
I've just spent a long time reading through this thread and there are several sad points and a very sad one.
It is sad that some car loving guys were killed in a track accident in a mega car.
It is sad that several families are hurt by this.
It is very sad that the issue is "who is liable"
In a recent case here one Porsche club driver sued the porsche club deutschland, the other competitor who hit him and the track owners for a incident in a regularity event where his car was written off. The Judge asked the guy was he in a race - the guy said no - he was in a regularity event. The Judge asked if he knew he was on a track, yes, if he was wearing a crash helmet, yes, if he has signed anything in the form of a waiver, yes, and then the judge basically told the guy to get lost and stop wasting everyones time.
The legal point simply was the guy knew what he was getting into and there was no way, after it goes sour, that he could claim innocence and seek redress from others.
The basis of the current US legal system seems to be you can seek redress from anyone or anything by declaring them negligent. In Germany the lady with the coffee between her legs would have been charged with dangerous driving. The issue about the coffee being hotter than it should be does not overrule the fact that she was stupid to put it between her legs.
In the US you've gone too far. Someone said that the lawyer must do his best to get the result the client wants....unfortunately clever lawyers seem to have succeded in winning judgements even if the client wishes were stupid. The one point that is lost here is personal responsibility.
Can you ever put common sense back into your legal system ???
It would make insurance cheaper for all of you.
03-27-2006, 06:05 PM
#191
Still plays with cars.
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Irish - nice post. Tort reform has been discussed for many years in the USA. For some interesting reading, and some truly stupid litigation, visit www.atra.org
Sadly, Tort reform would have a detrimental impact on the income of trial lawyers. It's a little like "physician, heal thyself".
Sadly, Tort reform would have a detrimental impact on the income of trial lawyers. It's a little like "physician, heal thyself".
03-27-2006, 08:19 PM
#192
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Irishdriver
Hi All,
Can you ever put common sense back into your legal system ???
It would make insurance cheaper for all of you.
Can you ever put common sense back into your legal system ???
It would make insurance cheaper for all of you.
Regarding our system, no doubt there are some bad verdicts.However, everyone is harping on personal responsibility of the driver without giving any thought as to whether a manufacturing design or failure could have contributed to many of these accidents.
You all assume that once a driver gets into his car anything that occurs is either or the other drivers his responsiblity. Have you forgotten some of the horrendous safety failures manufacturers failed to address but for our legal system? The problem most on this board have is they are quick to defend the car manufacturer without waiting for the facts.
Mike with some wine in his system gooses the throttle while doing near 70mph and the car goes sideways on him. Are you aware the same thing happened to more than one owner of a CGT and probably to some non owners as well? Is this a tendency or just driver error? Should we at least determine that if it is a tendency Porsche should fix or warn drivers?
We in the US do not have perfect legal system but because of it many lives have been saved in the US and the rest of the world.
03-27-2006, 08:23 PM
#193
Resize a pic of your car for your avatar
Hi Jeff, Good to hear from you. I'm waiting for Doc to reply to my post. Wanna see how bad I upset him. Hope he ain't too mad! How about the other guy pounding me for having a drink or two and driving home. 
I guess he's right though, since I'm the only one that has ever done that in the U.S. Jeez, whenever I drink and drive home, I'm so damn paranoid of getting caught, I take the back roads home and drive at or slightly under the speed limit. That's why I'm so mad at myself for that night on the bridge! I could have screwed up big time to prove what? That I could shut down a Nissan or Toyota? 
As far as the avatar, I tried several times and thought I had it right and then gave up. If you would do it for me, I would greatly appreciate it. Plus, I'll be pretty busy writing the review of the Ford GT now and hope to get it on later tonight. Took some excellent pics this afternoon especially since the sun was out in it's full glory. I'll e-mail you a pic of the CGT to do that avatar for me.
Haven't had time to send Jabba that e-mail I promised you but I'm going to for sure no matter how you feel. You were just 'busting my chops' in a friendly manner and he's making it look like he has to protect me. I appreciate that but it makes me look like a wimp!
p.s. Do you want me to send you a copy of the Ford GT review when I'm done?
I guess he's right though, since I'm the only one that has ever done that in the U.S. Jeez, whenever I drink and drive home, I'm so damn paranoid of getting caught, I take the back roads home and drive at or slightly under the speed limit. That's why I'm so mad at myself for that night on the bridge! I could have screwed up big time to prove what? That I could shut down a Nissan or Toyota? As far as the avatar, I tried several times and thought I had it right and then gave up.
If you would do it for me, I would greatly appreciate it. Plus, I'll be pretty busy writing the review of the Ford GT now and hope to get it on later tonight. Took some excellent pics this afternoon especially since the sun was out in it's full glory. I'll e-mail you a pic of the CGT to do that avatar for me. Haven't had time to send Jabba that e-mail I promised you but I'm going to for sure no matter how you feel. You were just 'busting my chops' in a friendly manner and he's making it look like he has to protect me. I appreciate that but it makes me look like a wimp!
p.s. Do you want me to send you a copy of the Ford GT review when I'm done?
03-27-2006, 09:44 PM
#194
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by Nick
If I am not mistaken, European insurance rates are substantially higher than in the US.
Regarding our system, no doubt there are some bad verdicts.However, everyone is harping on personal responsibility of the driver without giving any thought as to whether a manufacturing design or failure could have contributed to many of these accidents.
You all assume that once a driver gets into his car anything that occurs is either or the other drivers his responsiblity. Have you forgotten some of the horrendous safety failures manufacturers failed to address but for our legal system? The problem most on this board have is they are quick to defend the car manufacturer without waiting for the facts.
Mike with some wine in his system gooses the throttle while doing near 70mph and the car goes sideways on him. Are you aware the same thing happened to more than one owner of a CGT and probably to some non owners as well? Is this a tendency or just driver error? Should we at least determine that if it is a tendency Porsche should fix or warn drivers?
We in the US do not have perfect legal system but because of it many lives have been saved in the US and the rest of the world.
Regarding our system, no doubt there are some bad verdicts.However, everyone is harping on personal responsibility of the driver without giving any thought as to whether a manufacturing design or failure could have contributed to many of these accidents.
You all assume that once a driver gets into his car anything that occurs is either or the other drivers his responsiblity. Have you forgotten some of the horrendous safety failures manufacturers failed to address but for our legal system? The problem most on this board have is they are quick to defend the car manufacturer without waiting for the facts.
Mike with some wine in his system gooses the throttle while doing near 70mph and the car goes sideways on him. Are you aware the same thing happened to more than one owner of a CGT and probably to some non owners as well? Is this a tendency or just driver error? Should we at least determine that if it is a tendency Porsche should fix or warn drivers?
We in the US do not have perfect legal system but because of it many lives have been saved in the US and the rest of the world.
03-27-2006, 10:19 PM
#195
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Originally Posted by Nick
......gooses the throttle while doing near 70mph and the car goes sideways on him. Are you aware the same thing happened to more than one owner of a CGT and.........
I can't believe that you think Porsche should be responsible for driver error, stupidy or incompetence, but maybe when one understands the "financial interests" and follows the money trail all becomes clear.
My experience in this car, both in the hands of competent and not so competent drivers (mine) displayed no erractic or unexpected charateristics. Nothing (least of all carelessness or stupidity) will overcome the laws of Physics ( and Nature) so why should Porsche be held to God like standards?
The faster you go the more risk you assume, and I think Irishdriver got it all right, except for the Higher insurance rates