1AS

Jeff,
Sorry. I didn't mean that track configuration isn't a safety issue. It is. My intent was to emphasize the newer factor of much faster cars.
Roberga,
I'm not saying it's up to the "village" to protect us. I am saying that cars like the CGT look like more exotic versions of their predecessors, but they are a different breed entirely. While "buyer beware" is a reasonable and standard point of view, seemingly knowledgeable buyers are getting way over their heads. The absence of computer assist leaves no safety net. To acclimate to cars of this potential takes many track hours, and a forgiving set-up.
Mikey is saying something I have said in previous threads. Even with experience in 600 hp supercars, track driving is best initiated with bigger wing, wider rear rubber (preferrably true race tires), and a set up that is biased to understeer. Otherwise, keep it below 4000 rpm, or maybe less dependent on skills.. The people who have crashed figured this out too late.
It's really hard to catch a mid-engined car when the tail goes unexpectedly out, so the average driver needs to stay out of that situation. Highly experienced drivers may differ, but having driven most iterations of mid and rear engined cars,that's my opinion. To take a car like the CGT to its limit in a high speed maneuver is beyond the skill set of the vast majority of drivers. I don't think that's been clear to everybody.
If Bruce McLaren's M6 could be driven off the Chevy dealer's floor without the rear wing and without the slicks, would Bruce or Denny try to hot lap it? And if they wouldn't, why should a novice try? In the case of the CGT, each buyer has to figure it out, because nobody is saying it out loud. Having driven a full-race Can Am car, I personally thought the CGT would be harder to master. Do you really think most buyers have that sense? I don't think most would get into a Can Am racer, so what is happening when they buy a CGT? AS

roberga

These are not 19 yo kids buying CGTs.They are grown adults and responsible for their actions. If someone is in a honda civic and takes a corner on a country road faster then the car or the drivers skills and handle..... crash. Same for anything out there. The driver tells the car where to go. Ben told the car to go into the wall. The other drivers actions are part of the equation. We will never know. Was Ben looking far enough ahead? Was he "showing" the CGT stuff to the Lambo guy and not focused on the task at hand? Again we will never know.
We have drivers on our track in GT2/360s CGT and GT3 hitting 150-165 (all street cars) most track days. The one thing we do not have is an entrance at the end of the fastest part of the track. That makes no sence.

pole position

He was not a excellent driver, he was a enthusiast who thought he could handle a Carr Gt because the car is incredible easy to drive to a point. Excellent and professionel drivers do not post endless posts about the clutch he feared so much or the concern about the ride height due to his drive way or do routinely burnouts / donuts in front of Porsche and Ferrari dealerships in SoCal like he did. Also to the best of my knowledge he spun and put the car in the dirt right before the accident or at the previous event.

500

I can't believe that anyone who had a car like this would expect to be able to drive at 160 mph, without cage, HANS etc., ON street tires and not realize the compromises they are making. Maybe it is so, but do you really think anyone who gets into organized track days would not realize this? Perhaps it is not as obvious as I think it is... Porsche never advertised this car as a race car. A road car with competition technology and power yes, but a race car no. I suppose there is a philisophical difference between people here and I will just have to agree to disagree.

(BTW, I mean no disrespect to the memory of Ben by what I said. We all take various levels of risk in our lives, and I suspect Ben and Cory were aware that high performance motorsport is a dangerous activity.)

Mikey

I claim that anyone confident enought to drift a $440K car on a track is above average in driving skills. His dissatisfaction with the clutch and ride height does not make a statement about his driving ability. He was experiencing buyer's remorse with a major purchase and trying to back out of a non-refundable $50K deposit. Ben had a star quality to him, and appreciated admiration from fellow enthusiasts.

pole position

I disagree , he was not mentally or skillwise prepared to handle a high speed emergency and sadly he paid the ultimate price but the fact remains that confidence will not overcome skill, training and a cool head.

JasonAndreas

Boxster Front Caliper 4-piston: 40mm & 36mm
Boxster Rear Caliper 4-piston: 30mm & 28mm

CarreraGT Front Caliper 6-piston: 28mm & 32mm & 36mm
CarreraGT Rear Caliper 6-piston: 28mm & 30mm & 32mm
The CGT rotors are 380mm x 34mm and the pad area is 112cm2...

mac993

PP- Did you know Ben or get the chance to drive or ride with him?? I doubt it. I was lucky enough to know Ben, if only for a short while, and ride with him in the GT a couple of times. While not only being as knowledgable a car guy as there is, he was also a very skilled driver.

The fact of the matter is the kind of speed any high performance car can acheive, be it a full blown race car or so called "supercar", on a closed racecourse involves a high level of risk. Highly skilled racecar drivers die all the time (the best in the world in the best race cars in the world in fact!!). Ben knew this, Corey knew this we all know this. And every time we step onto the track there is a chance something will go wrong and someone could lose thier life. It's sad but it's the reality. On 6/2/05 we lost 2 great people who BOTH knew the risks involved and blaming Porsche or Ben's family will not bring them back.

Ray G

Boy, I sure disagree with some of the things I'm reading in this thread. I don't know how many of you complainers have actually driven a CGT at speed on a track, but I have plenty. Is it a race car? No, of course not, because you can drive it on the street. But it is a fantastic street car on the track! The best I've ever driven. Let's face it, most people do track days with STREET cars (GT3, GT2 etc.). Compared to my GT3, the CGT is so much more stable and controlled. While GT3s are bouncing around, the CGT is sucked down and very smooth.

The CGT makes something like 880 lbs of downforce at 205mph, which even at 150 is, I'm sure, considerably more than the GT3. The corning grip is awesome. I regularly (without pushing past my skill level) do 1.2-1.3 G in corners. (And on those 'street' Michellins.)

So I find it extremely ironic that those who seem to track GT3s are calling the CGT unsafe! It's so much the other way around, my friends.

Some of you sound like track snobs. Everybody has to start somewhere. Even I was new at the CGT at one time, and I built my skill level up over time.

I believe in personal responsibility - to myself and to others. I just don't see how Porsche can be to blame. We all sign the waivers, and we know the risks. We all, hopefully, know our limits and drive within them.

pcar, you are so right!

wch

"It is unrealistic for a novice to try to become a skilled track driver starting out in a supercar."

I agree. A formula ford, spec racer ford, any of many "momentum" cars are a better learning platform. However, I think an enthusiast should have the right to sign a waiver and learn in a supercar, if that's what he wants to do. I'm passionate about protecting the right to be a fool, having frequently exercised that right over the years.

"And his passenger's widow probably believes her spouse would not have knowingly placed himself in death's path."

But that's exactly what every driver and passenger at a race track does. Evidently, too few people understand this. Perhaps this loss will open eyes.

"He was an excellent driver but not technically capabale of recognizing the flaws in the CGT for track use."

To the contrary, I think it is obvious that cars like the CGT can bite you, hard. It takes no expertise at all to recognize this. Michael, you obviously have been deeply moved by Ben's accident, as have I, and I respect that very much. I remember what I was doing on Sunday, May 1, 1994; the loss of a racer or an enthusiast touches everyone who cares about motorsports. Mario Andretti once said, to paraphrase, "sadly, racing is also this;" he was speaking of the loss of a professional driver but, I'd argue that track day warriors take the same risks. There's nothing to romanticize about the risks, and I'm not trying to do that. I think that all the excitement and enthusiasm about performance cars and track days and amateur racing, and the amazing safety of modern cars, has made the possibility of accident and injury seem more remote than it really is.

Now, perhaps we'll get to watch a proof of the old adage that "a bad case makes bad law." A judge, jury and lawyers will argue about what makes a track safe, a driver capable, a car well designed. Why bother? Why not just admit that we don't need cars that go more than say 20 mph over any legal speed limit; that have more than, say, 125 hp; that can be started by someone who's had a glass of wine or is measurably fatigued; that don't have hard tops, and so on. And, of course, ban motorsports - because unless you slow the cars down to absurd speeds, you're going to have losses of cars and injuries.

Greg Fishman

You don't know crap! And Ben knew he had issues with the brakes yet he still drove the car on the track.

Bob Rouleau

Mikey - what's with the boxster brakes? I must have missed something.

LuisGT3

Excellent point.

MANUAL

For the first time since he died, I feel good reading some of Ben's old posts. Perhaps a good reason to save letters and email from family and friends.

Greg,

As far as I read, the brake issues Ben had were high rate of uneven pad wear, flaking, discoloration, and cracking.

Did I miss where he posted a more serious brake issue? Unless I'm mistaken, he had no problems decelerating from high speed unlike what Mark GT2 said of his GT2:

February 2003 I sent this note to Alwin Springer (who at the time was the President of Porsche Motor Sports North America)

I recently purchased a new 2002 GT2 and the car is used almost exclusively for track (DE) events I've noticed that the stock pads did not work well on the track and I’m trying to resolve this issue. The GT2 has the ceramic brakes and is totally stock except for hoosier tires.

While driving the car at Watkins Glen (the weather was about 40 degrees this past October) at the end of the back strait I would hit the brakes hard (going about 160-165 mph) and the ABS did not kick in.....the tires did not lock up.....and I just continued rolling forward...slowing down....but not very fast (it was as if the breaks had not been warm). I should note that I had run a few laps to warm up the brakes before doing this.

I then took my 2001 twin turbo out to the same spot, at about the same speed, and it stopped on a dime - everytime (the turbo has pagid orange pads but everything else is stock).

Any suggestions? Any pads for this application? I’m hoping that I won’t have to replace the entire brake system to achieve proper performance.

Note: Alwin called me back and informed me that the brakes DID NOT work well when they were heated up. He also told me that Porsche had just released 2 other types of brake pads for the car to try and resolve this problem… so now there were 3 types (street pad, sport pad, and race pad – I had been using the sport pad)

*********************************************************
When Porsche then continued to claim there were no problems - I should have known. I was just one of the unfortunate few to discover the problem first.

Greg Fishman

I know I am thinking outside the box here, but perhaps the issue was not the car, but the driver?