Greg A

Porsche might not have advertised it as a Race car, but most certainly a TRACK car. When prospective customers arrived in Leipzig they were given rides in CGTs by Porsche test drivers on the TRACK. Do you know what modifications were done to the car to make it safe for this?

The Carrera GT Experience @ Barber Motorsports Park allowed the participants to drive CGTs with pro instructors on the TRACK with the tops removed.

Why would any of this occur for prospective and current customers if Porsche thought the car wasn't capable of safely running on a TRACK?

Greg A

Greg Fishman

This is what Les wrote the day of the accident. In my opinion this is a pretty serious issue if you are about to take a car on the track and even more so if you are going to take others as passengers.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I got to know Ben through this board. I later tried to help him get his depsoit back when he didn't want the CGT. We were unable to return his deposit and he took delivery of his CGT and he truly loved the car.

After his enthusiastic ownership of the CGT he found one for me and I bought one. While in SD taking delivery of my CGT I had the privilige of meeting him and enjoyed getting to know him. We were making plans to get together at Fontana for the 4th of July at the Shelby meet.

I will say this which concerns me greatly. I have an email from him this morning where he expressed concern about his brakes. He had replaced his pads a short time ago at 2500 miles and with less than 1000 miles on his new pads he indicated that they were not working correctly. He even indicated that he was worried about them for todays event and was hoping they would get him through the event? I don't know where the crash happened at Fontana or if a lack of brakes played a role but it is disturbing that this happened on the same day he emails me regarding his brakes?????
Gods speed Ben."

Sanjeevan

[QUOTE=wch
"I've heard the outcrop in the barrier was a temporary measure to accomadate something else "

When you take your first laps, you look at the whole track. If something looks unsafe, you park. I've walked away from track time because I felt the mix of cars was dangerous, the drivers were dangerous, the weather was worse than I wanted to take on, etc. I heard recently of a track day setting for which no ambulance had been hired - IMO, stupid, stupid, stupid.

.[/QUOTE]

WCH, You make some excellent points. But unfortunately you've got it all wrong with this issue. It happens to be the issue that I dealt with. I did'nt dwell in any others that you take offense, simply because I happen to agree with you.

You are absolutely 100% correct in saying that you have to walk the track or drive slowly in a car to evaluate the track first. To my knowledge every DE event I have been to with PCA/BMW clubs made it mandatory for every participant to do so. To me this is too obvious a requirement, and I agree with you when you say " If something looks unsafe, you park. I've walked away from track time because I felt the mix of cars was dangerous, the drivers were dangerous, the weather was worse than I wanted to take on, etc. I heard recently of a track day setting for which no ambulance had been hired".....I agree that you park your car if this or any other unsafe situation arise, any thing else would indeed be stupid, stupid, stupid.

So, you ask where we disagree. Simple, track safety is a complex issue,...as I understand it is a multi-specialty. With engineers, safety specialists etc. doing not one walk-through, rather complex analysis and come up with certain safety requirements and recommendations. So, a race car driver cannot be expected to know every safety hazzards on the track, there are obviously some that you can catch (like the examples you have given), and some others you simply will not. (You may disagree with this, then unfortuanately you are inflicted with the same problem that you accuse others of, in not really knowing what you are getting in to)

You may say, the ones you can't catch is what puts the word "risk" to this whole deal, and we all know that it is a part of this whole endeavor, and therefore take it or leave it. Then you will have to say that the safety requirements set forth by the specialists does'nt really have to be followed by the track, they can just wing it, and the specialist are there just to reduce our unemployement rate and nothing more. Then we just have to agree to disagree.

In case if you think the same could be said of the car designers, and why I am making an excemption for the track officials only. Again, the car passed the requirements set forth by "the specialists", DOT approved and the manufacture went through "the process" and AFIW did not then violate any requirements set forth by DOT and others. To the contrary the track officials AFIW "VIOLATED" the minimum requirements set by "the specialists", and to me it is sad that anyone who participates in this endeavor thinks that's just all O.K

Ferris B

It may have been noted in one of the previous 160 posts, so apologies if I'm being redundant, but it's very likely that the plaintiff's attorney is monitoring this site and might use some of the discussions here in his case. Also, those of you with more intimate knowledge of Ben, his cars and other circumstances, might actually be subpoenaed.

A word of caution...

M758

I agree.
I have driven & raced on that track in my lowly 944 spec car using the full course 2.8 mile course so we used the main pit in/out.

That pit out seems like it is very bad spot. I have come down that straight at what is approaching 100 mph (hey I only have 134 rwhp) into the braking zone. For me the set-up for the braking zone starts near the cross over bridge. I don't start braking there, but I begin to set-up the car for braking and start finding my brake markers etc. Even at my speed alot happens through there fast so I prefert to "set-up" early.

Now since I have never used that pit-out I can't say how it should work or is supposed to work, but it does seem like not the best idea to have a car slowly exiting pit lane in an area like that. Seems to me a potential trouble spot.

wch

"You may say, the ones you can't catch is what puts the word "risk" to this whole deal, and we all know that it is a part of this whole endeavor, and therefore take it or leave it. Then you will have to say that the safety requirements set forth by the specialists does'nt really have to be followed by the track, they can just wing it, and the specialist are there just to reduce our unemployement rate and nothing more. Then we just have to agree to disagree."

jeeva, thank you for a thoughtful reply. My view indeed is that the unpredictable and undetectable are part of the risk of the endeavor, I think that is very well put. I also agree that, ideally, tracks should be built to state of the art safety specs as developed by specialists, but I believe that isn't possible for many reasons - in particular, the tracks can't afford it. Perhaps there should be more runoff room at the uphill at Lime Rock, or the kink at Road America, or the Corkscrew at Laguna? I don't know. I hate to see judges and juries and lawyers deciding track safety standards - emotion and the distortion of our legal system will decide what is best, not any specialists, nor anyone who knows anything at all.

Plus, I'm the sort of dumb cuss who liked Road Atlanta when it had the dip ....

Sanjeevan

WCH, Thanks for your reply. I agree that not every track can be state of the art. Making it so will only ruin things for us, and we''ll be the ones affected by it with lesser and lesser tracks. It is my belief that there are no family recreational go-kart tracks any more due to frivolous lawsuits (I may be wrong), I don't want the same to happen to road courses, or limiting them only to the professionals.

OTOH, I don't want the tracks to disregard them totally either. I was very upset when I heard that a recommendation was given to keep that barrier parallel to the track, and the track officials first had it that way only to push it back for some other event and never bothered to put back in it's proper place. But, now I see what a thin line we are walking on, your point is well taken.
Thanks.

P.S: Hey I can see why you liked the RA with a dip, it's the sort of thing that makes this sport interesting. I don't want a roadcourse turned into a safe carnival ride, not at all. But, if safety barriers are put in place and the engineer tells you to put it parallel to the track, do'nt go out there and put it horizontal, that's all. Who said "Mountaneering (sp?), bull fighting and auto racing are the only sports, everything else is a mere game". I like it that way. (Bob, I know DE is not racing, and is far less dangerous, and I am not playing any macho mindgames here.... )

Bob Rouleau

Since I don't know the track, is the corner after the front straight a left or right hand turn? I'd hope it is a left hander so that cars on the straight would be on the right side, keeping away from slower cars exiting the pits on driver's left.

I also find the comments about the brakes of interest. Sounds like a CGT suffers from the same sort of malady as my GT2 PCCB althoough it took me many more miles before the problem surfaced.

Rgds,

JBH

Please no... ...that means the lawyers and threat of lawsuits begin to influence our free exchange of thoughts and opinions.

One thing is certain: the lawyers have the name of everyone that attended the event and will depose them at sometime during the discovery process.

M758

The turn is a slow right hander chicane type corner. I figure 50-to 60 mph max for that rigth left combo. Notice the dark lines on the track. This is the braking zone.

Greg Fishman

Hmm.... Why were there so many cars waiting to enter the track if the session had already started? Seems to bolster the evidence that Ben was in the midst of a hot session (because he ignored the checker) while others were waiting to start their session.

JBH

I agree - the location of the wall and the pit out are glaring problems. As I said somewhere earlier, if they are going to run a high speed event, the event organizers and track operators have some responsibility for protecting people from their own inexperience and gaps in skill

There is a slight uphill on the back straight of VIR - I am doing around 160 at that point with no clear sight of what is ahead. I count on the worker at the top of the hill to warn me of any problems ahead. Quite honestly, I don't want anyone up there that is not experienced and professionally certified. We place an incredible amount of trust in their decision-making. The only things I know about that tragic day I have read in forums, IMHO, that was an accident that never should have happened. There should have been no emergency manuever, no loss of traction and no contact with the wall.

I really see little connection between what happened that day with either the car or the driver.

Splinelube

If there was no play area there I bet that wall would still have been there.


Is it Sposato's fault if he is waived on track by the flagger?


Neither of the two cars hit each other, right? That part of the track is how wide? Wide enough to have how many cars side by side? I bet at least 2, maybe even 3 or 4, hell, it's a racetrack!


Easy to blame the driver/car without studying everything that led up to the crash. Rarely are accidents caused by one sole factor.


Anyone that gets in a car, especially on a racetrack knows the dangers. Hell, it's safer to be in an airplane than to be in a car.

Either way, I really hope Porsche walks away from this case scott free.

roberga

A buddy of mine is in the process of getting $900K as a result of a suit in a situation that required wavers to be signed. He represented the persons being sued. Since wavers were signed the person that sued is now having to pay the court costs. The money is coming from the lawyer that brought the case. He is beibg sued be his client for malpractice to cover the $900K. Signed wavers and on a track will be a monumental callenge for the scumbag lawyer.

1AS

Every malpractice suit I have seen has signed waivers which ultimately mean nothing. (I have been consulted on scores of these)
Tracking has an implied risk, but not as great as racing. Even when the waiver is ironclad, there is arequirement that all applicable standards be met. I don't elieve the waiver will void this case.
I'm not a lawyer, but I see risk for the defandants. AS