Flat6 Innovations

This would require a blanket statement concerning cylinder materials, running clearances, ring pack and etc. I tend not to make general, blanket statements, especially about items that are heavily impacted by variables.

100% custom, extrusions of billet are used by LN for all sleeved engines, be it any Porsche engine. This holds true with the Cayenne engines. In some cases direct plating may be chosen.

Though we have used all cylinder sleeving methods, nothing has proven to compliment engine expansion, retention of roundness, and straightness, or running clearances better than the LN "Nickies" process.

I have recently developed a Cayenne engine program for www.rndengines.com who will be offering Cayenne engine solutions in 2017 in long block form, using LN Nickies cylinders. You won;t read about this just yet, but it IS coming as RND is now preparing the first batch of engines to be built in 2017. I did this primarily because stock displacement engines (with true development behind) them are in such demand. I believe this will continue in the future, as we are now seeing Panamera issues as well (really been seeing those since 2012).

I have no desire to build stock displacement engines for the Cayenne vehicles. We have had a couple of them requested over the years, and while they work great, they are not very satisfying to create. The engines that my company provides have been, and will always be performance in nature, and most use the proprietary 5.1L bore/ piston/ rod/ crank combination that I developed a few years ago for the 4.5 engines, or 5.4L for the 4.8L engines.

Today I seldom receive an Cayenne S failure calls, most of them are CTTs, and I think thats because the S vehicles are not being repaired, if they are first generation.

Carl Fausett

Yes, that is my Cayenne Torque Plate. Jack Raby's explanation of the purpose and value of the torque plate is correct. The block distorts when the head is added and torqued down, and the torque plate is added and torqued to factory values during the honing of the cylinders, so the honing is true and more perfectly cylindrical..

I try to let my professionals do their job... so its a rare day that I would tell Arias what alloy to use when making their pistons. The alloy used is chosen for its machinability, strength, toughness, and compatability with various coatings. I have had zero defects with Arias pistons in 17 years. Turbo, boosted, and NA motors. We have pulled 960 BHP out of a Porsche 928 (boosted) and seen it last 5 racing years on one set of our Arias pistons. They were replaced at that time, but not because they were bad - only because we went larger.

In order for me to start calling material specs to them, I would have to have a defect of some kind that I am trying to correct. I have none.

I do consult with them regards ring packages, and we have our "go to" answers now based on our experience in the Porsche Alusil blocks.

The Cayenne correction we are offering is fairly new and I have had zero call-backs on them. But then again, it's relatively new and I dont have a lot of years/miles on them yet. Only time will tell for sure.

Note that this corrective action is only new to the Cayenne. It is certainly not new to the 944, 944S2, 968, and 928 owners, nor the Audi and Merc motors. They are all Alusil, and we have been Nikasilling and building with our Arias forged pistons for a long time.

J'sWorld

It's nice to see you guys pushing your services and still checking the Cayenne forum especially when there are still people always popping up asking the same old questions. In reality I believe these methods employed by u guys are not only the two acceptable methods but the only two available methods.

Still no comment on piston material so I'l make my own.
2618 forgings are considered the be the strongest, most malleable, and fault tolerant. While they excel at most everything else they do have some disadvantages. They are soft.
They expand much more than a 4032 forge or casting. What this means for a DD and most notably the "S" application where strength is not as crucial, is that a 2618 piston will require much more running clearance than its counterpart. The ring lands are more susceptible to deformation and micro welding all of which are acceptable wear factors for this material. They CAN be noisy on startup or low idle where there isn't much heat/expansion in them. All this leads to accelerated wear and in an application such as the N/A Cayenne your trading un-needed overkill on strength for accelerated wear. Generally engines that require the properties of a 2618 forging are used in motor sports or high level applications where these qualities are mandatory. It's always nicer to melt a piston or blow a hole in it than have it break in peices and cause the block,crank or rods to be damaged as well. These types of engines are not generally run for extended amounts of miles before a tear down so replacement of worn pistons isn't generally an issue.

Contrary, 4032 forgings or castings are more thermally stable, expand less, have a higher hardness and brittleness, more silicon content usually in the 12% range, and more lubricity in general.

I would never second guess a parts manufacturer either but when pistons are being custom made and your paying 1200- 2K a set your choice of materials is usually available. Mahle makes pistons in both alloys. For a stock "S" engine and a stock turbo engine 4032 would be more than strong enough and have the extended wear properties that a 2618 alloy just won't offer.

Flat6 Innovations

The 2618 forging is a very generic piston. I have used them, but as you said they have some trade- offs.

I employ PC2 skirt coatings to all piston skirts, as we as a dry film coating to the ring lands. The ring lands are what I've seen wear most with a 2618 forging, especially on engines where excess running clearances come into play. Most of this comes from micro- welding, and the coatings kill that in it's tracks. Often times the coating won't show any wear after years of use, especially with a good oil being used that offers proper boundary layer protection.

That said, the key that I've learned with the Cayenne engines is the piston offset. The factory piston offers the same offset for both banks, and one of the two banks is set up basically opposite from what it should be optimally. This makes the engines run MUCH quieter than stock, especially running Nickies, where we can get away with incredibly tight static running clearances. If you want to learn a lot, perform an expansion study with a Cayenne block at various temperatures up to around 220F. On the first developmental 5.1 I had the engine out of the car 11 times, and apart. It was't because it had problems, but rather because I kept trying to nail the perfect running clearances for quiet operation with reduced oil consumption.

The stock pistons have no issues, if they are outfitted properly with high quality coatings on their wear surfaces. I developed a regimen for this for the RND program, as those engines use a factory replacement piston, with 4 coatings employed, as well as altered running clearances, and a different ring pack. To fit the ring pack the radial depth of the piston must be machined.

Just throwing a "forged" piston at an engine can be a mistake, and I have learned this the hard way with water cooled Porsche engines of all flavors, first hand. With every single one we have had to assemble and tear down over and over again, measuring and inspecting. Most of the successes of a piston selection can be found in the used oil analysis, as fuel intrusion, TBN and aluminum wear metals tell the story. Lots of engines with steel sleeves will have horrible fuel intrusion values (rings don't seal when cold due to the required clearances) and high aluminum wear metals, and this will show up in the TBN values as well.

The Cayenne engine was one of the most difficult of my developmental career with Porsche engines. The only thing that was more difficult was the 9a1 DFI engines to date.

I'd like to add that Arias pistons are a solid choice, my only problem with them is the weight they usually add over other brands. Thats harder on rod bolts in a sports car engine, but negligible on a Cayenne. I used Arias on engines dating back to the 356, but today my go to supplier is CP pistons. No one else is as willing to work with us developmentally as CP, and they won't share our secrets with others. They don't say "that won't work", but rather they will let me go crazy with my thoughts.

Builders have different choices, for different reasons. My program here at Flat 6 has a certain buyer, and the RND program will as well. The different buyers have different applications, and different demands. These are the reasons why "one size will never fit all".

uphoto

This all scares me right when I'm about to buy an 08 CTT.

It shocks me that Porsche isn't stepping up and doing something about these failures. Every single engine made today and put into a car should last at the very least 100k miles.

LuckyKey

Hi.

I'm looking for an engine to replace the 2008 Porsche Cayenne S V8 4.8L. Can anyone give me advice on where to find one? I'm located in Ontario, Canada.

I saw one listed as 2009-2010 V8 4.8L with a B in the 5th character of the VIN, like mine, but the seller didn't think it was the same engine. I thought the same 4.8L V8 was used in the Cayenne S from 2008-2010? Would anyone know if they're the same V8 4.8L engine in the 2008 as the 2009-2010 Cayenne S?

The seller is asking 4k USD and it has 125k "miles" on it...he may go lower?

What can/should I expect to pay for a mechanic to replace the engine?

Of note: I have what appears to be scored cylinders.

Any advice is appreciated.

Thanks

SimonBelgium

I believe the different character is for the GTS engine block. Otherwise, pretty sure it's the same block for normal S-cars with the 4.8

Nick Quach

Hi, I need some helps for instructions how to install the running boards for Porsche Cayenne S 2017.

ventoGT

Start a new thread man--have you ever used the internets before?

Also post this in the "958" subsection and you'll get quicker answers

Driftah

Another one bites the dust! 2005 Cayenne S with 80K kms making ticking noise and showing all signs of piston slap.

I'm really gutted about this, hadn't heard of the problem and then in 2 days of searching the net, finding all of this out.
Engine runs ok but ticking noise is quite loud. Cylinder 1 plug is quite oiled up. When I pulled coil on this plug, noise drops by about half. When I pull coils on others, no change.

So drained the oil and after 3000km since last change there are significant metal deposits. F*^$

The cost of repairing or replacing is not worth it, so now I have a ticking time bomb. Its not knocking yet, so realistically what sort of range can I expect this engine last?

I'm going to think of some creative way to video sending this car to the grave. Like crashing it through porsche headquaters. Any ideas?

Miamirice

95_993

That is a major bummer. You may want to give Dilberto's recipe of 2 cans Ceratec to see what it does....nothing to lose. He seems to have had success.

deilenberger

And please DO report the results... I'm very curious about magic elixirs (not that I haven't known any that worked - there was an oil detergent additive that worked quite effectively on noisy hydraulic lifters.)

Carl Fausett

Here are a couple pics of the typical galling of cylinder walls that we fix.
Note this is much more than just scratched. It is galling.

Please remember its just not the cylinder walls that are galled. The pistons are too.

Hard to imagine any chemical elixir will work on that. You just can't replace metal once it has been removed.

Nashville993