open letter
05-30-2003, 12:22 PM
#226
Burning Brakes
Mark,
Why are you spending so much time and [mean-spirited] energy on discrediting and instigating against Frank Lin? So much negativity and hating...not good. Don't be a hater.
Meanwhile, Frank is out racing. Good for him.
Why are you spending so much time and [mean-spirited] energy on discrediting and instigating against Frank Lin? So much negativity and hating...not good. Don't be a hater.
Meanwhile, Frank is out racing. Good for him.
05-30-2003, 03:29 PM
#227
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JC
Between "racing." and "Good..." you left out "screwing up big time, damaging his car, causing another car to be totaled, resulting in the other driver to likely miss a major event, calling it all "fate" and walking away from any responsibility."
Between "racing." and "Good..." you left out "screwing up big time, damaging his car, causing another car to be totaled, resulting in the other driver to likely miss a major event, calling it all "fate" and walking away from any responsibility."
05-30-2003, 05:05 PM
#228
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JC - Have you read the dude's webpage or any of his posts?
Not only was he a cocky driving school instructor who thought he was God's gifts to DE's, but from that he assumed he had all the skills necessary to race. So then he makes a huge **** of himself all over the internet for about 2 weeks only to disappear. Next thing ya know, you hear that he finally showed up to race, and when he did, he made a few huge mistakes and totally ruined someone's weekend, only to call it "fate" and not admit any blaim.
Yeah, good for him...
Not only was he a cocky driving school instructor who thought he was God's gifts to DE's, but from that he assumed he had all the skills necessary to race. So then he makes a huge **** of himself all over the internet for about 2 weeks only to disappear. Next thing ya know, you hear that he finally showed up to race, and when he did, he made a few huge mistakes and totally ruined someone's weekend, only to call it "fate" and not admit any blaim.
Yeah, good for him...
05-30-2003, 05:05 PM
#229
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">...where Frank would not take the smallest amount of responsibility for it. Frank told him 'It was fate'.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Isn't this the exact response that was expected of him had he made a similar mistake with a students car? At least now his students will know exactly how much risk/responsibility they are taking (100%) and how much risk/responsibility Frank is taking (0%).
/net
/net
05-30-2003, 06:29 PM
#230
Burning Brakes
I've followed the saga but I don't know the parties involved. I understand Frank has not represented himself well here. But I guess I'm more interested to know why Mark is hellbent on discrediting him so feverishly; that was really the gist of my question. There's got to be something personal going on - some personal history between them, no? It could make a good story. By his own admission Mark portrays himself as an old, mediocre racer. So why is he so quick to snipe Frank? Just curious I guess, after spending so much time wading through this thread I thought I might find out some of the background.
05-30-2003, 08:43 PM
#231
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by JC in NY:
<strong>Mark,
Why are you spending so much time and [mean-spirited] energy on discrediting and instigating against Frank Lin? So much negativity and hating...not good. Don't be a hater.
Meanwhile, Frank is out racing. Good for him.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Thanks for the posts. I'll give them due consideration.
<strong>Mark,
Why are you spending so much time and [mean-spirited] energy on discrediting and instigating against Frank Lin? So much negativity and hating...not good. Don't be a hater.
Meanwhile, Frank is out racing. Good for him.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Thanks for the posts. I'll give them due consideration.
05-30-2003, 10:09 PM
#232
Burning Brakes
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by JC in NY:
<strong>By his own admission Mark portrays himself as an old, mediocre racer.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I don't know Mark, but from what I have read on these forums, maybe he is just being modest when he calls himself "mediocre".
<strong>By his own admission Mark portrays himself as an old, mediocre racer.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I don't know Mark, but from what I have read on these forums, maybe he is just being modest when he calls himself "mediocre".
05-31-2003, 12:05 PM
#233
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Wow, this train wreck is still going on, eh? At this point, I have just two comments:
1. I have met Mark, and I can say that I aspire to be as "mediocre" a driver as he is someday.
2. Where is Frank? We need to hear his account of the incident at WSIR. That should be good for another 10 pages on this thread. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
TT
1. I have met Mark, and I can say that I aspire to be as "mediocre" a driver as he is someday.
2. Where is Frank? We need to hear his account of the incident at WSIR. That should be good for another 10 pages on this thread. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
TT
05-31-2003, 03:22 PM
#234
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Someone asked why I am coming down so hard on Frank – they thought it was mean-spirited and implied that I was spending far too much time on this 'mission'. So I thought about it and decided I will tell my story so that all of you can understand why I will not let this go. You might want to kick back, maybe get a Scotch as this is going to be long.
First the history between Frank and myself. I like Frank, on a personal basis. I think he is a pretty good driver and is usually a great instructor when he is in the passenger seat of a student's car. I even let him drive my SRF – I offered, he did not ask. On that level I still like Frank. There you go, there is ALL the history between us.
So what is this about? This is about the extremely high stakes of putting a car on a race track. I have personally seen well over $1,000,000 in damage done to cars on tracks. I have personally witnessed the deaths and crippling injuries inflicted on a number of drivers on track. Even at DE's, I have seen over $100,000 in cumulative car damage and have watched a few people leave the track in ambulances. There have been cases of loss of life and loss of limb as a result of DE's. This is not Disneyland folks but a good friend observed that the overall DE environment has led to the 'Disneyfication of race tracks' (Thanks Professor). Participants either don't realize or don’t remember this stuff is dangerous.
So what are my gripes with Frank:
1. Frank is personally dangerous on the track. Ultimately he demonstrated this in his first race. He made some mistakes and took out two cars. He put the other driver in danger. But that is not the problem – we all accept that risk from rookies – it is part of racing. I am not criticizing Frank for the mistakes – we all make those – I hit my quota of rookie mistakes. BUT, when I hit another car, and it was my fault, I went and apologized & took responsibility. In one case I clearly caused the damage and even offered to pay for their damages. The other driver declined that payment as it was minor for him. We have since had many close & clean races together. The problem I have with Frank is that he did not assume any responsibility for this, therefore he will not learn. It appears that Frank will remain a danger to other drivers – many of these other drivers are my friends and I really don't need to see another friend injured or killed.
It is not just the high intensity environment of a race. There was a thread or two on a Honda forum (since deleted) where there were complaints about Frank's aggressive driving at a DE, including passing without a signal where one was required. Now, did Frank admit a mistake and apologize? No – he admitted to the pass (and the violation of the event rules) and tried to justify why it was OK.
2. Frank does not take responsibility for his actions on the track. He has false beliefs – such as being able to maintain control when driving through oil. He not only has such false beliefs, he passes them on to others. As long as he is an instructor, there are people who will listen and believe what he says. Further, Frank does not adequately assume responsibility for other people's property. Frank willingly drives other people’s cars at a level where they may crash (and that could even be 5/10ths if there is oil), yet he lacks the personal resources to pay for any damage he might cause. Last time around, Frank said he would do the right thing and would work forever to pay off any damage – while honorable, that just doesn't cut it. If you jump into someone else’s $100,000 car and wreck it, you need to return it to the way it was in a short time. How many would accept having the car sit for 10 years while Frank accumulates enough money to pay for it so you could finally get it fixed?
Frank is absolutely right that there are lessons best taught by a more experienced driver behind the wheel of a student's car – I agree with him in some cases. My issue is that Frank can not afford the price of those lessons and the student is not aware of the risks & facts when those lessons are taught.
3. In one or more cases, he has done a poor job with a student by failing to instruct – he used the time to beg to drive the car. By not instructing, he let that student down and failed to help make his track experience safer and more fun. When that happened, I went to Frank and tried to tell him the issue without violating the trust of that student who did not want to be identified. Frank blew if off and would not accept responsibility for that act. It is not adequate, as an instructor to serve only 90% of your students (I don't mean those that just don't click – I mean the cases where you don't even try). Frank did this with the Viper student and did not see it as a problem when I spoke to him. On top of that Frank willingly admitted over the past couple of weeks on another forum that he tries to spend his instructing time with those who let him drive their cars.
4. Frank sends an artificial message about track safety. On his website, he said that DE's are safe – we wouldn't all be doing them if they were not safe. I would like to see the response from those who have lost property, limbs and lives at DE's. This is a very wrong message and can serve to have students let down their guard during a dangerous activity. DE students and racers should be scared when they are driving – it is dangerous.
5. Add to all of that the fact that Frank is arrogant. Consider that there have been many times where Frank's view of driving/instructing has differed from almost every single opinion from those with greater experience than Frank. In these cases, Frank stubbornly holds fast to his belief. If I had a belief about driving, and found that 10 out of 10 SCCA National champions disagreed, I would be pretty well convinced that I was wrong. That doesn't mean I would roll over, but I would certainly be taking a hard look at my view and try to learn from the others.
So why do I care if Frank is arrogant? When you add that to all the above, it says he is not only dangerous to people and property on the track, he is unwilling to change and fix those issues and will remain a danger.
I can sum it up with this - I sometimes instruct for SCCA at the competition licensing school. When I do that, my primary responsibility is to help ensure that no one gets a license who will be a danger to other drivers on the track. There are other, secondary duties, but safety is the main aspect. If ANY student showed Frank’s attitude and drove the way he apparently did in his first race, I would not give that student a license. On the other hand, if Frank was my student and showed an open, safe attitude, I would pass him in a New York minute. I have no personal vendetta against Frank – I will however, keep on him as long as he appears to be a danger to people and property on the track.
First the history between Frank and myself. I like Frank, on a personal basis. I think he is a pretty good driver and is usually a great instructor when he is in the passenger seat of a student's car. I even let him drive my SRF – I offered, he did not ask. On that level I still like Frank. There you go, there is ALL the history between us.
So what is this about? This is about the extremely high stakes of putting a car on a race track. I have personally seen well over $1,000,000 in damage done to cars on tracks. I have personally witnessed the deaths and crippling injuries inflicted on a number of drivers on track. Even at DE's, I have seen over $100,000 in cumulative car damage and have watched a few people leave the track in ambulances. There have been cases of loss of life and loss of limb as a result of DE's. This is not Disneyland folks but a good friend observed that the overall DE environment has led to the 'Disneyfication of race tracks' (Thanks Professor). Participants either don't realize or don’t remember this stuff is dangerous.
So what are my gripes with Frank:
1. Frank is personally dangerous on the track. Ultimately he demonstrated this in his first race. He made some mistakes and took out two cars. He put the other driver in danger. But that is not the problem – we all accept that risk from rookies – it is part of racing. I am not criticizing Frank for the mistakes – we all make those – I hit my quota of rookie mistakes. BUT, when I hit another car, and it was my fault, I went and apologized & took responsibility. In one case I clearly caused the damage and even offered to pay for their damages. The other driver declined that payment as it was minor for him. We have since had many close & clean races together. The problem I have with Frank is that he did not assume any responsibility for this, therefore he will not learn. It appears that Frank will remain a danger to other drivers – many of these other drivers are my friends and I really don't need to see another friend injured or killed.
It is not just the high intensity environment of a race. There was a thread or two on a Honda forum (since deleted) where there were complaints about Frank's aggressive driving at a DE, including passing without a signal where one was required. Now, did Frank admit a mistake and apologize? No – he admitted to the pass (and the violation of the event rules) and tried to justify why it was OK.
2. Frank does not take responsibility for his actions on the track. He has false beliefs – such as being able to maintain control when driving through oil. He not only has such false beliefs, he passes them on to others. As long as he is an instructor, there are people who will listen and believe what he says. Further, Frank does not adequately assume responsibility for other people's property. Frank willingly drives other people’s cars at a level where they may crash (and that could even be 5/10ths if there is oil), yet he lacks the personal resources to pay for any damage he might cause. Last time around, Frank said he would do the right thing and would work forever to pay off any damage – while honorable, that just doesn't cut it. If you jump into someone else’s $100,000 car and wreck it, you need to return it to the way it was in a short time. How many would accept having the car sit for 10 years while Frank accumulates enough money to pay for it so you could finally get it fixed?
Frank is absolutely right that there are lessons best taught by a more experienced driver behind the wheel of a student's car – I agree with him in some cases. My issue is that Frank can not afford the price of those lessons and the student is not aware of the risks & facts when those lessons are taught.
3. In one or more cases, he has done a poor job with a student by failing to instruct – he used the time to beg to drive the car. By not instructing, he let that student down and failed to help make his track experience safer and more fun. When that happened, I went to Frank and tried to tell him the issue without violating the trust of that student who did not want to be identified. Frank blew if off and would not accept responsibility for that act. It is not adequate, as an instructor to serve only 90% of your students (I don't mean those that just don't click – I mean the cases where you don't even try). Frank did this with the Viper student and did not see it as a problem when I spoke to him. On top of that Frank willingly admitted over the past couple of weeks on another forum that he tries to spend his instructing time with those who let him drive their cars.
4. Frank sends an artificial message about track safety. On his website, he said that DE's are safe – we wouldn't all be doing them if they were not safe. I would like to see the response from those who have lost property, limbs and lives at DE's. This is a very wrong message and can serve to have students let down their guard during a dangerous activity. DE students and racers should be scared when they are driving – it is dangerous.
5. Add to all of that the fact that Frank is arrogant. Consider that there have been many times where Frank's view of driving/instructing has differed from almost every single opinion from those with greater experience than Frank. In these cases, Frank stubbornly holds fast to his belief. If I had a belief about driving, and found that 10 out of 10 SCCA National champions disagreed, I would be pretty well convinced that I was wrong. That doesn't mean I would roll over, but I would certainly be taking a hard look at my view and try to learn from the others.
So why do I care if Frank is arrogant? When you add that to all the above, it says he is not only dangerous to people and property on the track, he is unwilling to change and fix those issues and will remain a danger.
I can sum it up with this - I sometimes instruct for SCCA at the competition licensing school. When I do that, my primary responsibility is to help ensure that no one gets a license who will be a danger to other drivers on the track. There are other, secondary duties, but safety is the main aspect. If ANY student showed Frank’s attitude and drove the way he apparently did in his first race, I would not give that student a license. On the other hand, if Frank was my student and showed an open, safe attitude, I would pass him in a New York minute. I have no personal vendetta against Frank – I will however, keep on him as long as he appears to be a danger to people and property on the track.
05-31-2003, 03:55 PM
#235
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"><strong>2. Where is Frank? We need to hear his account of the incident at WSIR. That should be good for another 10 pages on this thread. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">The length of this thread caused me to inquire about the longest thread on Rennlist to date......answer: (drum roll please) .... 118 Pages - 2,932 posts/replies. It was recently moved to the off topic forum.
05-31-2003, 06:33 PM
#237
Burning Brakes
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I've sat back and watched this post evolve over the past days. I have even checked other boards for a "second opinion".... the concenus seems to be, that Frank's a jerk.
Wheew... that sure sums up why you have your opinion of Frank, Mark!!!
From Frank's posts, both here and on other boards, check Corner Carvers too, it seems that Mark has Frank's profile down pat!
I wouldn't want to even be on the track with Franic Frank, much less allow him to instruct anyone I know!
Wheew... that sure sums up why you have your opinion of Frank, Mark!!!
From Frank's posts, both here and on other boards, check Corner Carvers too, it seems that Mark has Frank's profile down pat!
I wouldn't want to even be on the track with Franic Frank, much less allow him to instruct anyone I know!
05-31-2003, 06:58 PM
#238
Lifetime Rennlist Member
But what I really wish is that Frank opens his mind, steps back and realizes the mistakes. He could apologize to Shawn, let everyone know he has re-thought it, and then he would be a welcome asset to the racing and DE communities.
05-31-2003, 10:52 PM
#240
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Thanks for the reminder Mark.. I'll be attending my second DE tomorrow at Laguna Seca, and it behooves all of us to keep in mind what can happen at speed. I had so much fun at the first one I don't want to spoil it all by losing an important perspective.
Chris
Chris