18" or 19" rims on GT4
12-29-2015, 10:42 PM
#196
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12-31-2015, 05:04 PM
#198
GT3 player par excellence
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01-02-2016, 10:52 AM
#201
Rennlist Member
Why?
To the original poster, why would you change Porsche's engineered and uber-tested tires and wheels for 18" or 19" wheels?
It cost more, not less.
Did not the invention of the street-able Race tire makes the switch back and forth obsolete?
Here is how I figure...
19" tires in and of themselves are not substantially less expensive, but I do understand there are sticky tires which are (currently) only offered in 19" tires which are substantially less expensive.
The 20" OEM Cup 2s are about $2,000, whereas good street-able 19" tires or slicks could cost only $1,300 for set.
But, the track rims cost too. New 19” rims will cost about $4,000 for custom forged wheels. Or, about $2,000 for decent off-the-shelf rims (with some compromise in quality/weight/and diameter).
Assuming I’m running 4 or 5 track weekends & 2,500 street miles per year, I’ll be changing my expensive Cup 2s every year. Here is how the math works out:
If I stay with OEM:
Year 1………………….$2.500
Year 2………………… $2,500
Year 3 …………………$2,500
Year 4 ……………… $2,500
Total Outflow………….$10,000 This is an expensive option.
Vs.
Buy a set of track tires and Wheels:
Year 1
Change my OEM 20" to street Michelin Sport Pilot…..... $1,300
Buy track rims and slicks…………………………………………. $4,000
Total Year 1………………………………………………………………… $5,300
Year 2 …………………………………………………………………….. $1,300
Year 3 …………………………………………………………………….. $1,300
Year 4 …………………………………………………………………….. $1,300
Plus, replace the 20” street MSPs…………………………….. $1,300
Total Outflow…………………………………………………………….. $10,500
This is an even more expensive option.
Of course, in terms of absolute performance, slicks on 19” wheels would be quicker than street-able 20” tires. But, how much quicker? Is it worth the hassle of buying / storing / transporting /and changing wheels every time. And what about the fact that slicks specifically are not allowed under the Porsche’s operating manual and warranty?
I think the math makes a very good case for staying with the extreme performance multi-purpose street/race OEM 20" wheels and tires.
Flame suit on, what say you?
To the original poster, why would you change Porsche's engineered and uber-tested tires and wheels for 18" or 19" wheels?
It cost more, not less.
Did not the invention of the street-able Race tire makes the switch back and forth obsolete?
Here is how I figure...
19" tires in and of themselves are not substantially less expensive, but I do understand there are sticky tires which are (currently) only offered in 19" tires which are substantially less expensive.
The 20" OEM Cup 2s are about $2,000, whereas good street-able 19" tires or slicks could cost only $1,300 for set.
But, the track rims cost too. New 19” rims will cost about $4,000 for custom forged wheels. Or, about $2,000 for decent off-the-shelf rims (with some compromise in quality/weight/and diameter).
Assuming I’m running 4 or 5 track weekends & 2,500 street miles per year, I’ll be changing my expensive Cup 2s every year. Here is how the math works out:
If I stay with OEM:
Year 1………………….$2.500
Year 2………………… $2,500
Year 3 …………………$2,500
Year 4 ……………… $2,500
Total Outflow………….$10,000 This is an expensive option.
Vs.
Buy a set of track tires and Wheels:
Year 1
Change my OEM 20" to street Michelin Sport Pilot…..... $1,300
Buy track rims and slicks…………………………………………. $4,000
Total Year 1………………………………………………………………… $5,300
Year 2 …………………………………………………………………….. $1,300
Year 3 …………………………………………………………………….. $1,300
Year 4 …………………………………………………………………….. $1,300
Plus, replace the 20” street MSPs…………………………….. $1,300
Total Outflow…………………………………………………………….. $10,500
This is an even more expensive option.
Of course, in terms of absolute performance, slicks on 19” wheels would be quicker than street-able 20” tires. But, how much quicker? Is it worth the hassle of buying / storing / transporting /and changing wheels every time. And what about the fact that slicks specifically are not allowed under the Porsche’s operating manual and warranty?
I think the math makes a very good case for staying with the extreme performance multi-purpose street/race OEM 20" wheels and tires.
Flame suit on, what say you?
01-02-2016, 11:07 AM
#202
A lot of guys here are serious track rats, 15+ days a year. I like your math and think it's legit and stands up for those who occasionally track. But there is a case of you do a lot of days. I'll be done with my tires after 3 events and they were not even fully open test days. That being said, I'm likely to stick to your plan of OEM. At least until we have too many options in other sizes and rubber to justify a move. As more time passes, I think there will be compelling reason to look at alternatives as performance of the different manufacturers rubber comes to light from people's experiences as has happened in the GT3 community
01-02-2016, 11:42 AM
#203
1) You are going to wear out your tires a lot faster with an OEM alignment especially on track: i.e. good luck trying to get 4-5 weekends + street driving - unless you are stuck in green group
2) 19" tires are cheaper and you don't have to go to slicks. There are non slick options just as sticky.
3) Extra wheels allow you to have rain track tires: i.e. OEM wheels with MPSSs
4) Easy to sell, replace track wheels compared to trying to get replacement OEMs because of an incident. And its not "if" you'll have an incident but "when". Car not sitting and waiting on replacement.
5) @ 2500 miles/year you're math on replacing OEM 20 tires is wrong since you account for them twice - track wheel /tire option
2) 19" tires are cheaper and you don't have to go to slicks. There are non slick options just as sticky.
3) Extra wheels allow you to have rain track tires: i.e. OEM wheels with MPSSs
4) Easy to sell, replace track wheels compared to trying to get replacement OEMs because of an incident. And its not "if" you'll have an incident but "when". Car not sitting and waiting on replacement.
5) @ 2500 miles/year you're math on replacing OEM 20 tires is wrong since you account for them twice - track wheel /tire option
01-02-2016, 12:07 PM
#204
Why?
To the original poster, why would you change Porsche's engineered and uber-tested tires and wheels for 18" or 19" wheels?
It cost more, not less.
Did not the invention of the street-able Race tire makes the switch back and forth obsolete?
Here is how I figure...
19" tires in and of themselves are not substantially less expensive, but I do understand there are sticky tires which are (currently) only offered in 19" tires which are substantially less expensive.
The 20" OEM Cup 2s are about $2,000, whereas good street-able 19" tires or slicks could cost only $1,300 for set.
But, the track rims cost too. New 19” rims will cost about $4,000 for custom forged wheels. Or, about $2,000 for decent off-the-shelf rims (with some compromise in quality/weight/and diameter).
Assuming I’m running 4 or 5 track weekends & 2,500 street miles per year, I’ll be changing my expensive Cup 2s every year. Here is how the math works out:
If I stay with OEM:
Year 1………………….$2.500
Year 2………………… $2,500
Year 3 …………………$2,500
Year 4 ……………… $2,500
Total Outflow………….$10,000 This is an expensive option.
Vs.
Buy a set of track tires and Wheels:
Year 1
Change my OEM 20" to street Michelin Sport Pilot…..... $1,300
Buy track rims and slicks…………………………………………. $4,000
Total Year 1………………………………………………………………… $5,300
Year 2 …………………………………………………………………….. $1,300
Year 3 …………………………………………………………………….. $1,300
Year 4 …………………………………………………………………….. $1,300
Plus, replace the 20” street MSPs…………………………….. $1,300
Total Outflow…………………………………………………………….. $10,500
This is an even more expensive option.
Of course, in terms of absolute performance, slicks on 19” wheels would be quicker than street-able 20” tires. But, how much quicker? Is it worth the hassle of buying / storing / transporting /and changing wheels every time. And what about the fact that slicks specifically are not allowed under the Porsche’s operating manual and warranty?
I think the math makes a very good case for staying with the extreme performance multi-purpose street/race OEM 20" wheels and tires.
Flame suit on, what say you?
To the original poster, why would you change Porsche's engineered and uber-tested tires and wheels for 18" or 19" wheels?
It cost more, not less.
Did not the invention of the street-able Race tire makes the switch back and forth obsolete?
Here is how I figure...
19" tires in and of themselves are not substantially less expensive, but I do understand there are sticky tires which are (currently) only offered in 19" tires which are substantially less expensive.
The 20" OEM Cup 2s are about $2,000, whereas good street-able 19" tires or slicks could cost only $1,300 for set.
But, the track rims cost too. New 19” rims will cost about $4,000 for custom forged wheels. Or, about $2,000 for decent off-the-shelf rims (with some compromise in quality/weight/and diameter).
Assuming I’m running 4 or 5 track weekends & 2,500 street miles per year, I’ll be changing my expensive Cup 2s every year. Here is how the math works out:
If I stay with OEM:
Year 1………………….$2.500
Year 2………………… $2,500
Year 3 …………………$2,500
Year 4 ……………… $2,500
Total Outflow………….$10,000 This is an expensive option.
Vs.
Buy a set of track tires and Wheels:
Year 1
Change my OEM 20" to street Michelin Sport Pilot…..... $1,300
Buy track rims and slicks…………………………………………. $4,000
Total Year 1………………………………………………………………… $5,300
Year 2 …………………………………………………………………….. $1,300
Year 3 …………………………………………………………………….. $1,300
Year 4 …………………………………………………………………….. $1,300
Plus, replace the 20” street MSPs…………………………….. $1,300
Total Outflow…………………………………………………………….. $10,500
This is an even more expensive option.
Of course, in terms of absolute performance, slicks on 19” wheels would be quicker than street-able 20” tires. But, how much quicker? Is it worth the hassle of buying / storing / transporting /and changing wheels every time. And what about the fact that slicks specifically are not allowed under the Porsche’s operating manual and warranty?
I think the math makes a very good case for staying with the extreme performance multi-purpose street/race OEM 20" wheels and tires.
Flame suit on, what say you?
For a track rat, make that 7-8 sets of tires per year, and the credit for selling the 19" wheels when you sell the car - not to mention you need a second set of wheels for track specific tires so that you are not trashing your street tires. Hell you might even need two sets of track wheels to get the maximum life out of the tires. Tires seem to conspire against giving you a whole weekend.
Porsche put 20" wheels on it for styling and it offers a bit more grip with a different shaped - elongated tire patch. Much like why a 29er climbs better than a 26er.
01-02-2016, 01:00 PM
#205
Perhaps the format on my mobile isn't clear and I am not following your calcs fully. You're assuming the the track tires will wear at same annual rate as OEM Cup2s without putting on the 2500 extra road miles incurred in the OEM calc. If the 2500 miles / year is inclusive of mileage to/from track for Cup2s then the calc for the MPS on 20" is less than 2500/year.
Why?
To the original poster, why would you change Porsche's engineered and uber-tested tires and wheels for 18" or 19" wheels?
It cost more, not less.
Did not the invention of the street-able Race tire makes the switch back and forth obsolete?
Here is how I figure...
19" tires in and of themselves are not substantially less expensive, but I do understand there are sticky tires which are (currently) only offered in 19" tires which are substantially less expensive.
The 20" OEM Cup 2s are about $2,000, whereas good street-able 19" tires or slicks could cost only $1,300 for set.
But, the track rims cost too. New 19” rims will cost about $4,000 for custom forged wheels. Or, about $2,000 for decent off-the-shelf rims (with some compromise in quality/weight/and diameter).
Assuming I’m running 4 or 5 track weekends & 2,500 street miles per year, I’ll be changing my expensive Cup 2s every year. Here is how the math works out:
If I stay with OEM:
Year 1………………….$2.500
Year 2………………… $2,500
Year 3 …………………$2,500
Year 4 ……………… $2,500
Total Outflow………….$10,000 This is an expensive option.
Vs.
Buy a set of track tires and Wheels:
Year 1
Change my OEM 20" to street Michelin Sport Pilot…..... $1,300
Buy track rims and slicks…………………………………………. $4,000
Total Year 1………………………………………………………………… $5,300
Year 2 …………………………………………………………………….. $1,300
Year 3 …………………………………………………………………….. $1,300
Year 4 …………………………………………………………………….. $1,300
Plus, replace the 20” street MSPs…………………………….. $1,300
Total Outflow…………………………………………………………….. $10,500
This is an even more expensive option.
Of course, in terms of absolute performance, slicks on 19” wheels would be quicker than street-able 20” tires. But, how much quicker? Is it worth the hassle of buying / storing / transporting /and changing wheels every time. And what about the fact that slicks specifically are not allowed under the Porsche’s operating manual and warranty?
I think the math makes a very good case for staying with the extreme performance multi-purpose street/race OEM 20" wheels and tires.
Flame suit on, what say you?
To the original poster, why would you change Porsche's engineered and uber-tested tires and wheels for 18" or 19" wheels?
It cost more, not less.
Did not the invention of the street-able Race tire makes the switch back and forth obsolete?
Here is how I figure...
19" tires in and of themselves are not substantially less expensive, but I do understand there are sticky tires which are (currently) only offered in 19" tires which are substantially less expensive.
The 20" OEM Cup 2s are about $2,000, whereas good street-able 19" tires or slicks could cost only $1,300 for set.
But, the track rims cost too. New 19” rims will cost about $4,000 for custom forged wheels. Or, about $2,000 for decent off-the-shelf rims (with some compromise in quality/weight/and diameter).
Assuming I’m running 4 or 5 track weekends & 2,500 street miles per year, I’ll be changing my expensive Cup 2s every year. Here is how the math works out:
If I stay with OEM:
Year 1………………….$2.500
Year 2………………… $2,500
Year 3 …………………$2,500
Year 4 ……………… $2,500
Total Outflow………….$10,000 This is an expensive option.
Vs.
Buy a set of track tires and Wheels:
Year 1
Change my OEM 20" to street Michelin Sport Pilot…..... $1,300
Buy track rims and slicks…………………………………………. $4,000
Total Year 1………………………………………………………………… $5,300
Year 2 …………………………………………………………………….. $1,300
Year 3 …………………………………………………………………….. $1,300
Year 4 …………………………………………………………………….. $1,300
Plus, replace the 20” street MSPs…………………………….. $1,300
Total Outflow…………………………………………………………….. $10,500
This is an even more expensive option.
Of course, in terms of absolute performance, slicks on 19” wheels would be quicker than street-able 20” tires. But, how much quicker? Is it worth the hassle of buying / storing / transporting /and changing wheels every time. And what about the fact that slicks specifically are not allowed under the Porsche’s operating manual and warranty?
I think the math makes a very good case for staying with the extreme performance multi-purpose street/race OEM 20" wheels and tires.
Flame suit on, what say you?
01-02-2016, 02:21 PM
#206
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For some folks, it is not about the $$$, it is about the rules and being competitive in a particular race setting. For instance, in SCCA Solo racing, the street tire classes require a minimum 200 treadwear tire. The MPSC2 is a 180 UTQG tire, so it is not eligible. The most competitive tires in this category are not available in 20" at the moment and probably won't be for some time still, thus the need to change rims to 19" size.
YMMV,
TT
01-02-2016, 02:48 PM
#207
Burning Brakes
You made some good points Matt and there are pluses and minuses to having a track set of wheels. The negative is mostly just initial cost of the wheels and storage space. There are some cheaper, albeit not ideal sizing, wheel options (mostly from OZ).
I agree with ShakeNBake.
Additionally, I like having 2 sets of wheels that look different. This enables me to change the look of the car by swapping the wheels. Street dedicated MPSS will stay softer, grippier, run straighter, and be quieter than if they are used dual purpose on the track. Tires lose some of their pleasant "streetabilty" traits after seeing the track.
You can usually sell the second set and recover 50% of the initial cost when you are done with them.
The OEM wheels will collect scars, brake dust, scrapes, paint peels, etc from the track. Being a neat freak, I like being able to clean and wax the OEM wheels when they are off the car. This is very easy to do.
The swap at track time is pretty easy when the wheels are already off for brake bleeds and pad swaps.
I like the way you think about this - logical and rational. I think you are correct for the occasional HPDEer.
For a track rat, make that 7-8 sets of tires per year, and the credit for selling the 19" wheels when you sell the car - not to mention you need a second set of wheels for track specific tires so that you are not trashing your street tires. Hell you might even need two sets of track wheels to get the maximum life out of the tires. Tires seem to conspire against giving you a whole weekend.
Porsche put 20" wheels on it for styling and it offers a bit more grip with a different shaped - elongated tire patch. Much like why a 29er climbs better than a 26er.
For a track rat, make that 7-8 sets of tires per year, and the credit for selling the 19" wheels when you sell the car - not to mention you need a second set of wheels for track specific tires so that you are not trashing your street tires. Hell you might even need two sets of track wheels to get the maximum life out of the tires. Tires seem to conspire against giving you a whole weekend.
Porsche put 20" wheels on it for styling and it offers a bit more grip with a different shaped - elongated tire patch. Much like why a 29er climbs better than a 26er.
Additionally, I like having 2 sets of wheels that look different. This enables me to change the look of the car by swapping the wheels. Street dedicated MPSS will stay softer, grippier, run straighter, and be quieter than if they are used dual purpose on the track. Tires lose some of their pleasant "streetabilty" traits after seeing the track.
You can usually sell the second set and recover 50% of the initial cost when you are done with them.
The OEM wheels will collect scars, brake dust, scrapes, paint peels, etc from the track. Being a neat freak, I like being able to clean and wax the OEM wheels when they are off the car. This is very easy to do.
The swap at track time is pretty easy when the wheels are already off for brake bleeds and pad swaps.
01-02-2016, 03:20 PM
#208
Rennlist Member
Many good points made.
A tire wear data point; my car came outfitted with the Dunlop Race Maxx's. I have 4,000 street miles and 3 HPDEs so far. I believe tires have one good DE remaining in them. I'm told to expect the Dunlops to be slightly stickier, but not hold up as long as the Cup2s.
My 3 DEs have been:
- a 1 1/2 days at Nurburgring, driving mostly at 7/10s but one lap at a blistering 7:45 with racer driver Thomas Koll showing how its done.
- 1 day at my home track NOLA driving 9/10s. 2:05 average with 1:56 possible at 10/10ths. (I heard GT4 Clubsports will hold one of the first races at NOLA in mid April)
- 2 days at Daytona Speedway driving high speeds at 8/10s last session averaged 2:19 with 2:06 possible at 10/10th.
I realize there are too many variables to properly gage tire wear. Driving style, speed, air temps, traction control nannies, etc will vary widely. All that being said, I'm hoping the Cup 2s will last a year of normal DEs. I do avoid running in the peak temps of summer and do consider myself a smooth blue solo driver. Instructors have said that I have "good self preservation skills"
Originally, my plan was to shoe the car with 20" Sport Pilots for better wet traction on the street/and buying a set of 19" for the track.
EDIT - But, it is more cost effective (for me) I'M INCLINED to stick with the OEM Cups 2s or Dunlops BUT NOT DECIDED COMPLETELY.
A tire wear data point; my car came outfitted with the Dunlop Race Maxx's. I have 4,000 street miles and 3 HPDEs so far. I believe tires have one good DE remaining in them. I'm told to expect the Dunlops to be slightly stickier, but not hold up as long as the Cup2s.
My 3 DEs have been:
- a 1 1/2 days at Nurburgring, driving mostly at 7/10s but one lap at a blistering 7:45 with racer driver Thomas Koll showing how its done.
- 1 day at my home track NOLA driving 9/10s. 2:05 average with 1:56 possible at 10/10ths. (I heard GT4 Clubsports will hold one of the first races at NOLA in mid April)
- 2 days at Daytona Speedway driving high speeds at 8/10s last session averaged 2:19 with 2:06 possible at 10/10th.
I realize there are too many variables to properly gage tire wear. Driving style, speed, air temps, traction control nannies, etc will vary widely. All that being said, I'm hoping the Cup 2s will last a year of normal DEs. I do avoid running in the peak temps of summer and do consider myself a smooth blue solo driver. Instructors have said that I have "good self preservation skills"
Originally, my plan was to shoe the car with 20" Sport Pilots for better wet traction on the street/and buying a set of 19" for the track.
EDIT - But, it is more cost effective (for me) I'M INCLINED to stick with the OEM Cups 2s or Dunlops BUT NOT DECIDED COMPLETELY.
Last edited by matttheboatman; 01-02-2016 at 05:32 PM. Reason: keeping an open mind :)
01-02-2016, 03:29 PM
#209
Rennlist Member
I am a neat freak myself. My OEM Platinum wheels have already picked up a few nicks inside the wheels and one I created trailering it to Daytona.
So, for accurate cost comparison, I will need to figure in refinishing the wheels periodically if I track with the OEM 20s.
01-02-2016, 03:53 PM
#210
deleted
Last edited by ExMB; 01-02-2016 at 04:12 PM.