MetalSolid

We can all admit that Porsche would not be Porsche without the "flawed" rear engined 911...

The 911 is the most recognized sports car shape, ever.

mnmblu

997= wannabe 993.

And what does your diatribe have to do with my statement? Was the question: What is the best engineered Porsche ever? No.

You will not find the viseral feeling of a air-cooled 911 in any other Porsche. We are talking sheer enjoyment of driving. If you want to drive in autopilot get a new one.

Kaz

I agree Metal but please allow me to quote Mark Kibort on the 928 board.

"very impressive. Great to be a part of the 928 team that Road America weekend. How can you argue with a 4th place finish overall against more expensive hardware than most have ever seen in one place before. and, not to mention 1st in class against 38 cup cars and anything goes without a turbo.

I think porsche screwed up. Just think if porsche made a factory race car out of the 928."

mk

Flott Leben

Yeah, right.

ah, everything?!? My "diatribe" was in response to all of those sanctimonious "rear engine Porsches are the only real Porsches" and "I am right and you are wrong" statements.

To not consider engineering when discussing why a particular Porsche is "best" is just asinine. Porsches are known for, above all, their engineering.

mnmblu

The 997's retro styling is by popular demand, open you eyes.

Porsches (sports cars) are meant to be driven for the sheer enjoyment of driving... not to be the fastest car around. It's all about the "feel" of the rear engined 911, not to mention the styling of the car. Screw the engineering, like you said they never got it right and they still don't have it right. You guys are too worried about your pecking order in the Porsche family it's kind of pitiful.

As far as being sanctimonious, please note that I stated that I love all Porsches and have driven most over my 35 years of ownership. And, tradition... nothing wrong with that. There is a reason that "classic shape has endured all these years. It's because it's a work of art that will last the ages (Tradition).

I am just stating my opinion... not arguing with you.

Here's some air cooled engineering for you to consider.

long_beach_968

Ill have to say owning a 968, I love it and would take it over most porsches, but even i know that the true porsche is rear engined with a flat six. the GT3 is what true porsche is about, a flat sux with power to go around, great looks, a reasonable sticker price (once they actually sell it at sticker) and the abillity to put cars to shame on the track that cost 2-3x as much. im sorry but there is no substitute for a 911

mnmblu

Long Beach, I really like the 968. They finally made that 944 look good and then they stopped making it, go figure.
You are correct about the GT3, what a Porsche. And really not too bad lookin either. I especially love the GT3RS. Wow.

Flott Leben

mnmblu:
My eyes are open, how about opening your mind?

1) The 997 is not "retro styling." What Porsche did do is get away from the Boxster-type headlights that 911 owners had been complaining about because it made their cars look too much like Boxsters from the front.

2) First you state that the true heart and sole of Porsche is located in a rear engine, water cooled 911 and then you proceed to gush about your air cooled 993. I guess you don't own the "true heart and soul" of Porsche after all.

3) Feel and styling are what is important to you, I guess. Forget about power, performance, quality, manufacturing, durability, reliability and all those other "minor" traits of Porsches. As long as it looks pretty and feels nice . . .

4) Screw engineering? HUH? I don't even know how to respond to that statement. I hope you were being facetious. If not, I guess I'll start by saying we are all glad you are not running the company. Without Porsche's engineering prowess all you would be driving is a very stylish-looking VW bug.

5) I did not say Porsche engineers haven't got it "right." What I said was what everyone who knows these cars knows - the rear engine design was flawed from the beginning and only Porsche has been able to overcome those flaws (quite nicely, I might add). The mid-engine is probably the most preferable layout followed by a front engine, rear transaxle layout. That is just the physics of weight distribution and handling. Things that, luckily, the Porsche engineers do care very much about.

6) Tradition is great - for things like styling - but not when it comes to performance and handling. In that area, improvements, modification, progress and innovation are more important to what makes a sports car a sports car.

7) As for sanctimonious comments, I'll let your own words speak for themselves:
And finally the best of all:
I am not arguing, just laying out the facts . . .

worf928

The poll was "Choose your favorite Porsche" not "Choose the best Porsche and defend your choice."

It's been two months. More people have selected the 928 as the favorite Porsche than any other model listed.

mnmblu

Flott Leban,

Neat name by the way.

You are entitled to your belief so you drive what you want and god bless you and may you have many years of driving enjoyment.

I will continue to drive a 911 (993). I chose my car for the enjoyment of driving a twitching rear engine, fun to drive, challenge to my driving skills, traditional Porsche that is a work of art, not just a go toy.

You sound pretty knowledgeable about Porsche's and I was just wondering how many different types of Porsches have you owned and driven? Do you have extensive experience with other performance cars also? (Oh, and this is kind of a rhetorical question but I have a feeling your will respond.) Just curious because I think I speak from personal experience driving many different models of Porsches over 35 years of ownership, actually most of Porsche's street models, and a few Porsche race cars. So, based upon my personal driving experience, I, like many others, enjoy the 911 and consider it what makes a Porsche a Porsche. There are many front engine, water-cooled cars out there that are very nice and frankly will stomp the crap out of a Porsche but that is not what I choose to drive. If I had thought that a 928 was the best Porsche, I would have Ponied up the 10 grand to pick one up.

I really don't want to go tit for tat with ya because I'm just too busy right now to burn away time debating you and I have a feeling that getting into a pissing match with you could take the rest of my life so I let's just agree to disagree.

So happy motoring to you and enjoy your Porsche.

Oh, and please read my sig again, if you interpreted it correctly then would have recognized what I was truly saying. Life without art is not life. So, they are one in the same. Life=Art. Art=Life. The reference was to a 993 being a work of art. And if you don't have a 993 you don't have art… which equals life...that is art. Yes a little deep but that is why I ask to have the reader think before proceeding.

Flott Leben

Dave, as usual - you are right.

mnmblu:
Always fun to debate, but we are on a bit of a tangent. To answer your question though: Although not 35 years, I have had a 20+ love affair with these cars - all Porsches. About the only types that existed in that span that I haven't driven, owned, borrowed, "borrowed" and/or worked on are the 959, the Carrera GT and the race cars. I envy you for having driven the last. Those, truly, used to be the heart and soul of Porsche (and from what I hear, will be again in a few years - thank God ).

I respect your enthusiasm for the 993 and I would never ask you to drive something else (they are also great investments, as far as Porsches go). I am not even asking you to switch over to a 928 (although if you did I would suggest spending at least $20K). Just open your mind to others in the Porsche family and move away from "the 911 is the only real Porsche" crowd. You seem smarter than that to me.

As for the sig. line, I understood it perfectly.

P.S. Nice avatar. I used to be a big fan of the WWN and BB was one of my favorites – I even saw the play.

Have a great weekend. See, I can play nice!

mnmblu

Were cool

Oh, and my mind really is open to other Porsches. I love every one ever made, including the tractor. It's just the rear engine thing for me.
Cya,
Alan

fixnprsh

if you hold a poll in Texas to see who is going to win the election in Novemeber, you get the opinon of a narrow minded few and not what is actualy the truth in the majority,
in reality the 928 is a nice car, didn't change much from its inception to its demise, although the 911 advanced greatly by leaps and bounds along side it. Coincidence? or did all along Porsche (an engineering company) know it was never going to be king and just gave it some more power here and there and change a few stylin ques to keep it afloat untill it was completely obsolete design?
Like I said, its a nice car but it is not in the spirt and soul of a true Porsche in its design and the majority of the world feels the same, you dont see them gracing a magazine cover, show up in packs at a rally or track day, new aftermarket modification parts being produced, no concept for a future model (I've seen drawings, thats it). Infact I dont remember one 928 making excellences list for the greatest of all time, So just because there are a bunch of 928 owners that voted on a poll here and think there car is the best, the rest of the world thinks differently,
but then again trying to explain this is like

worf928

Actually, Flott, I was bored and wanted to see if I could beat some life into this thread

I found this thread to be interesting and fun. We've read a lot of opinions cogently, eloquently expressed (and some not so...) We have read passion, we read facts, we read some history. I found this poll initially difficult. What was my favorite Porsche? I like them all for different reasons. (Well, maybe not that V6 Cayenne, but that's another thread.) In the end I decided to vote in league with my wallet. I've driven a lot of different Porsches. I've come within heartbeats of buying several that were not 928s. I plan to buy non-928 Porsches. (A 997 C4 will probably be in my garage in the next few years. When the wife sits in those electric adaptive sport seats I will likely have to buy the car just to get her to the vicinity of the house.)

Each person chooses what they buy, drive, and like according to their own context. Most of the folks on this thread have acknowledged that their choice was personal and a combination of many factors. Few have failed to acknowledge that front-engined or mid-engined or rear-engined or air-cooled or water-cooled Porsches are all Porsches and deserve the name, the respect and the adoration of those that own them. However, and this brings me to my point, there is still another vocal voice expressed not only in this thread but in many other venues.

This is the voice that insists that the only Porsche worth the name, the only 'true' Porsche, the only Porsche deserving of any respect is something with a flat-six slung behind the rear axle. That voice was almost the death of Porsche in the 80s and 90s. This voice will be the death of Porsche if this voice's eyes and mind don't open.

If Porsche cannot satisfy or quiet this 'purist' voice while at the same time growing its volume and attracting more and more 'non-purists' it will die. In this day and age of razor-thin or negative automotive per-unit profit margins, unfathomable development costs, and dwindling numbers of independent marques, Porsche must grow. The 'purists' cannot be relied upon to buy enough of these rear-engined flat-six cars to keep Porsche in business. Porsche tried this approach and almost vaporized.

Porsche realized this was true in the 70s and tried to break out with the 928 and 944. The development of both cars was hobbled because Porsche management was fearful of alienating their 'purist' market. The 928 died as a result. The 944 almost died, but in the end was probably what kept Porsche on life-support in the late 80s and early 90s simply through volume and thanks to a number of US dealers that sold the heck out of them. The 993 extended Porsche's life. The 986 saved Porsche. The 996 has provided a springboard to survival, but - as we have seen - this necessary new '911' was not well-received by the entirety of the 'purists.' Porsche isn't out of the woods yet.

Porsche is now trying - more successfully this time - to break out again with Cayenne, the 986 follow-on, and perhaps - if rumors are to be believed - another front-engined GT. However, they are careful and tentative - almost fearful. One thing seems clear in this thread: Porsche's are, in large part, Porsches because of the racing heritage. Porsches that are not raced are not 'real' Porsches. While I do not agree completely with this seemingly wide-spread collective opinion it does lead to the conclusion that if Porsche doesn't push for or minimally support development for racing of a particular model, that model may very well be pushed aside and suffer the same fate as previous non-911s.

Why does this matter? The mid-engined 986 is a better architecture on which to develop a volume privateer race car. That's not opinion. It's physics. In this respect the 928 cannot be considered better. The 928s high moment of inertia due to the front-engined rear-mounted transaxle layout is something that has to be engineered around - much like the inverted pendulum architecture of the 911 that requires Porsche's engineering prowess to work around.

But, will the 986 be developed? Maybe. Maybe not. We shall see with the next iteration.

Porsche is still fearful of the 'purists.' It is careful to ensure that no other Porsche eclipses the 911 line. (The Carrera GT does not factor in to this as it is too low volume. It is a "halo" car.) If Porsche cannot push forward with all its models those that are left behind will soon be non-competitive in the global market, will not sell, and will not contribute to Porsche's health.

One of the reasons that IBM was so successful in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, (until the US Government scared the life out of it) was that it always developed new products that cannibalized its existing products. This was the best way to ensure that it stayed ahead of the competition, kept its margins healthy, and - in short - survived. Porsche cannot do this as long as The Purists heap disrespect and thinly-veiled contempt on Porsche's non-rear-engined products and their owners.

Those of us that want Porsche to survive need to be vocal in the cause of seeing Porsche put all its models on the track. We need to make noise about seeing each model pushed to its evolutionary limits (always in the context of the market though.) We need to welcome a Boxster that kicks the 911 off the GT2 and GT3 throne. Or, at least, we will applaud the attempt. I have no particular desire to see the 911 'de-throned.' I have no bone to pick with the 911. It would be fitting of the 911's history to see it do a smack-down on all comers. And I would enjoy that. I do have a bone to pick with the 'voice of the purist' though.

Those Porsche owners who would like to see flat-six rear-engined 'heritage' cars made by the Audi/VW/Bentley/Seat conglomerate with an ever-increasing VW content and ever-thinning bloodline should go ahead and continue to live in their little world. Dante will rise from the grave and pen a special new 10th level of Hell for them.

There. I've said my peace. Time to feed the shark(s).

worf928

So, you are saying Texans are narrow-minded?