RS-America

Attended the 2016 Northwest Overland Rally in Plain Washington with 'Otis'. This is a annual family friendly event. By Overland, think of driving from London to Singapore like Ray Hyland did with his wife and two sons last year. Yes our Cayenne made it on the Top Ten Adventure Mobile list.
.
http://www.exploringelements.com/eve...and-rally-2016
.
http://www.exploringelements.com/nor...dventuremobile

RS-America

Yes a year ago we were competing in the ALCAN 5000 winter rally.
Otis’ 15 seconds of fame is in the video at ~4:08
- ALCAN 5000 video-
Believe all vehicles that entered the 2016 ALCAN 5000 winter rally had mechanical issues, some required them to withdraw. We were driving in conditions most of us do not encounter, especially for an extended time. 5,500 miles in ten days of competitive TSD driving. Starting in Kirkland, WA then onto Yellowknife, Northwest Territories - Whitehorse, Yukon Territory - Fairbanks, Coldfoot, Anchorage, and finally Whittier all in Alaska. Resourcefulness is a desired trait. We had two issues with ‘Otis’, the first was some of the exterior plastic bits becoming brittle in the cold temps. When the plastic broke we removed it and pressed on. Second issue was the air suspension, believe moisture got in and then froze. Our karma must be good as the shop that looks after our 3.2 Targa called not knowing we were in the North country. After a consult with their Cayenne-Touareg tech decided to press on. Another issue was getting diesel fuel. Knowing that there were stations but not knowing if they were open in the winter, had fuel or pumps that were working was a challenge. Some had agriculture nozzles that are too large, some gasoline nozzles - too small. Only had to resort to using a funnel once. The range our diesel has is awesome, we never ran out and did not have to carry extra tanks like the gasoline vehicles did. Comforting was the Dodge Cummings diesel entry with a 104 gallon tank, while offered we did not need to use. One spot where electric plug-ins were not available we awoke to a Cayenne diesel cold soaked to -36F. Otis started up with no issues, also no issues with the transmission or anything else. The issue the Dodge Cummings had was when the frozen serpentine belt broke on start-up. One real sad story was the Saab 900T entry. They had so many mechanical issues that at the last one they took the car to a junk yard who refused to accept it. Two choices were to abandon it or try to fix one more time. After getting it on a lift found one brake calliper’s mount bolts had failed, sourced these parts and completed the rally. Two Porsche 944s and a Group B Audi Quattro were among the entries that completed the rally. Very glad we had Nokian Hakkapeliitta 8 tires, with the snow and particulary on the ice stage they kept us going in our intended direction. We never overdrove our Cyclops Adventure Sports auxiliary lights with blue filters that enabled us to discern thru the snow where the road stopped and bar ditch began. So glad we did not opt for a light bar! One issue critical for rally is having an accurate odometer. As Nokian Hakkapeliitta 8 tires are not ’N’ rated and the odo can not be calibrated this was/is a serious issue for us. We have a NuMetrics auxiliary odo but have not gotten it to work properly with our OBDII signal output. Any suggestions would be appreciated!
With rally and our upcoming off-road trips we will have a busy spring/summer! Hoping to find some time for our RS-America.

RS-America

This is the 2016 Winter ALCAN 5000 route - note not much was on the ALCAN Highway. Yes the ice stage was a lot of fun. Not shown is an extension down to Whittier, Alaska. The ALCAN 5000 is run every two years alternating between winter and summer. The next being run as the 2018 Summer ALCAN 5000 which already has 39 cars and 37 motorcycles entered.

TomF

Wow, simply spectacular! You've got me thinking about the upcoming 2018 event...

Cheers,
TomF

RS-America

Tom, suggest signing up asap as I believe there is an ALCAN waiting list. As you appear to be local, the Rainier Auto Sports Club puts on the ALCAN.
PM me if you would like additional info - RASC - http://www.rainierautosports.com
There are two other RASC events you might consider the Raindrop Rally, May 7 2017 and Nor'Wester Rally, September 15-17 2017
It would be good to run the one day Raindrop for experience prior to the three day Nor'Wester. The 2017 50th anniversary Nor'Wester will be a timed, 3-day tour of the crunchy bits of Eastern Washington, Oregon, and Central Idaho, with sustained hillclimbs, breathtaking vistas, meandering forest tracks, and a pine cone or two. Based in Clarkston Washington, the rally pursues the lesser traveled environs through ranches, farms, forests, and vineyards. Day One will be an afternoon warm-up with views north of the Clearwater River canyon, wheat fields, pastureland, and an overlook of Lewis & Clark's namesake cities. Day Two will explore the endurance aspect of Nor'Wester's past. It will be a long day. From our Clarkston base, we'll head south through Washington canyons into Oregon canyons. There will be lots of gravel. The bulk of Day Two will be in the forest. A little bit of rolling wheat fields in the morning and again in the evening. Day Three is all Idaho … lots of Idaho, mostly forest, but interspersed with rolling open spaces and some spectacular overlooks on the Lapwai Plateau. This will be an early start, with a comfortable finish.

Searcher356

RS - nice job on Expedition-izing your Diesel! It's hard to beat Hakka 8's for snow traction. We are running Nokian R2 SUV now, and they seem even better on black ice and packed snow, but I think I'd still go with the 8's for non-surfaced roadways and slush.
Here's a question for you, though. Our biggest off-road disappointment with our '15 Diesel is that it doesn't have the full off-road package that all the other Cayenne models have (the Hybrid is also short-changed).
When we loose traction at one corner, we are essentially stuck.
While this isn't an issue on maintained roads and trails, it leaves us spinning our wheel(s) if one wheel gets light or lifts free of the surface. All the power goes to the wheel with no traction. Worse, if opposite corners are lifted free, the car just sits there and shifts power back and forth to the corners without traction.
We have been stuck in the most embarrassing situations - turning around on a narrow forest service road, with a wheel in the barr ditch, for instance.
The only solution I have found is to feed a lot of throttle in, spinning the wheels like crazy, until one of them grabs traction enough to propel us forward or back. Then, since we have fast spinning, we are "launched" at the next obstacle, pretty much out of control (no gentle about it).
There is no brake intervention to still the spinning wheel(s) and redirect traction to more productive corners. We had the same unfortunate experience with our Tiguan.
So we don't take that inviting trail unless we have a buddy.
Is this your experience? How do you deal with it? (Yes I engage the lever and the lights come on.)

RS-America

.
Short answer is that we have not experienced what you are seeing. Only got stuck twice - neither of which would the off-road modes have helped. We do get into technical situations but have not had the issues you are experiencing.
What size wheels and what kind of tires are you running for off-road and at what pressure? We have 18" wheels, smallest that would fit over the brake disks, to get the most rubber possible. For tires we have General AT Grabbers for off-road, Hakka 8s for snow & ice. Yes we have three sets of wheels so we have two full size spares for off-road and snow/ice. When off-road we air down the Grabbers depending on conditions. Nokian recommended keeping their tires on the high side for snow, then letting some out for our ice drives.
One of the very first things we bought were Maxtrax to get us unstuck. Most everyone we know who overlands gets this brand as they work the best. These will support the weight of our CD as a bridge, double as a shovel especially for snow and sand. http://www.off-road.com/trucks-4x4/r...iew-54023.html - With all of the places we have been the only time we needed them was when we high centered in snow with none of the wheels touching ground. Skid plates provide protection but also make a great toboggan. With Maxtrax and a friends Rubicon who also had issues, got each other going again. The German in the ECU was NOT happy, could not figure what condition the car was in as we did not roll, were completely level and yet none of the wheels had traction. At -5F on a mountain clearing do not know what the wind speed was - do know that I was cold and the ladies we inside texting each other.

The other time we got stuck was at a 'Off-Road Snow Recovery' class given by our local overland club. We had a difficult time getting Otis stuck intentionally so we could practice recovery techniques. What finally did get us stuck was the Cayenne's limited approach and departure angles. No amount of torque or lockers would have gotten us free without significant damage. Thankfully this was a snow recovery class and we had all the equipment and expertise available.

Cayenne's are great Overlanders, as said limited approach and departure angles will inhibit any rock crawling or deep mud or water running.

Looks like you are close to the mother of all Overlanding events in Flagstaff - https://www.overlandexpo.com/west - Would HIGHLY recommend going to this. Same folks also run Overland Expo East. Great way to meet like minded folks, excellent classes, family friendly. The event would be similar if both Rennsport and Parade were combined then add useful Tech Sessions, classes, and off-road trips.

Searcher356

Our "overlanding" is following attractive side roads, and excursions around Colorado's 14ers, so it's a different gig. More extreme angles, boulders and crevices. Think Ouray CO or Tin Cup Pass.
Sometimes we are with a group of off-roaders, and sometimes we are just exploring.
The problem with the Diesel and hybrid Cayennes is that all the power is transferred to the wheel with no traction. If we cross a creek and get a wheel a foot or two off the ground, it just spins merrily away.
One way to coax the other wheels to participate is to go for revs, which sometimes engages another axle, but it's awfully abrupt, and will probably get us into more trouble than not.
It's not a tire or pressure thing - its the compromise AWD system on those models that doesn't engage brakes on the spinning wheel or adequately lock the center diff.

RS-America

While the Cayenne will never be a rock climber, we are doing a lot more than clean forest roads. Biggest limiting factor is our approach and departure angles which we have taken ours to the extent of. Taking any more extreme an angle we would damage the Cayenne. Believe these angles are the same for all 958 Cayenne models with the only difference being the extra that air suspension gets you. Short of this issue, ours has done everything we asked on four or three wheels. We have not traveled Colorado but the COBDR is on our list - http://ridebdr.com/COBDR which goes right thru Ouray. We have done other BDR trails like the WABDR last summer doing the IBDR this summer along the Magruder Corridor & Lolo Motorway. Put ours on three wheels regularly on our trips thru the Cascades. Not sure what is happening with yours.

Searcher356

By the way that MaxTrax device looks like it works great.
Reminds me of a pair of grippers I made out of 3/8 plywood with lots of bolts, about 3 ft long, one tire width wide. Kind of the same concept, but patterned after ice racing bolting. Also had a shovel that I bent into exactly that same width.
It worked on a situation where I broke through frozen sod about 2" thick into a flowing sea of mud below, during a spring thaw. Actually, I only got stuck once, when all 4 wheels broke through and I ended up resting flat on the frame. Had to get pulled out. I devised the bolted plywood device, found a place to get stuck again in the same conditions, and was able to drive out.
Carried the plywood in the back for years but never used them again (thought I might have to in the Great Sand Dunes, but airing down to 4 lbs worked to get across a couple hundred feet of the really fine stuff. Used tubes in those days to keep from losing the bead with those extreme low pressures. Still had to hunt for the stem because it rotated inside, after that trip. Was lucky.

Searcher356

Here's something you might try if you get high-centered on snow.
Just try standing on one corner of the vehicle at at time, and bouncing. The bouncing can compact the snow a couple of inches - which may be all you need to just drive away. Sometimes it may take two people, but I have unstuck many trucks and AWDs with this method.

RS-America

Had not thought of trying this.

Have you tried any of the Backcountry Discovery Routes? http://ridebdr.com
Will have to try and contact you when we get over to Colorado to do the CBDR.
Definitely not this year as all of our trips are at least sketched out if not planned.

Hope to see you coloring outside the yellow & white lines!

RS-America

Folks have asked for pictures of how we mounted the spare off the rear. The main support is the trailer hitch with stability from tabs that pick up the left and right tow hook receptacles. After seeing trunk mounted bicycles sway left & right we needed extra stability especially going off-road. As our diesel has great range water is our limiting factor - thus two Scepter US Military water cans. In keeping with 'Leave no Trace' we have a Trasharoo Off-Road Spare Tire Trash Bag - www.trasharoo.com The Trasharoo also works great to carry firewood at the start of a trip. Not pictured, we have also mounted our Maxtrax https://us.maxtrax.com.au between the tailgate and carrier. We want easy access to our Maxtrax if stuck on the trail. Have fun traveling outside those pesky yellow and white lines!

flackm10

I love Otis. There are not enough Cayenne overland builds out there!
I'm building my '13 S right now to hit the mountain trails on the weekends, but it will still be my daily driver.
Can you tell me more about the General Grabber AT2 tires? I don't plan on having multiple sets of tires so I'm curious to know how Otis does on the pavement when your running the Grabber AT2's? There's hardly any info out there about offroad tires on Cayennes.

Thanks!

RS-America

Thanks for the compliment, just trying to share where we are and how we got here.
We have set ours up for both TSD rally and Overlanding. Cayennes' will never be a rock climber and we have our RSA for the track.

To start with, older Cayennes have a greater latitude for wheel and tire sizes. The Cayenne diesel, for off-road, is limited to 18” wheels and tire width and diameter. For off-road the smallest wheel size to enable the greatest amount of rubber possible is the goal. In the 255/55/18 range there are some very good tires but selection is limited.

We have been running the General Grabber AT2 for both on and off road. We feel that for over 60k miles the General Grabber AT2s are the best on and off road tire for us. Understand that using one tire for more than one purpose will require some compromise. Yes there is a little more road noise when on pavement but not enough to bother. If you want to really step on it from a stop it will preform but you can feel and hear the larger tire lugs working more than a street tire.

The only time the Grabber AT2s are not on Otis is when we expect to see ice conditions like what we encounter during winter rally events. Winter is the element studded Nokian Hakkapeliitta 8s were designed for. The Nokian’s proved their worth on the winter Totem Rally up in British Columbia and the ALCAN 5000 which did not use the ALCAN highway.

Having said the above we are looking at the newer tire on the block, BFGoodrich All-Terrain T/A KO2. While the Grabber AT2s have preformed very well in technical off-road situations and on paved surfaces, the BFGoodrich’s tread pattern seems more biased for off-road. Will want to see if the BFGoodrich tire preforms as well as the Grabber AT2s on pavement.

Nokian is coming out with their new ‘Rock Proof’ tire this year. Believe this will be even more biased for off-road use at the expense of paved road driving. When we carve time for a long several state BDR tour we will look at the Nokian tire more seriously. Especially if they offer these in a size we can use.
https://www.nokiantires.com/summer-t...ian-rockproof/

The Tire Rack has tested the Grabber tire, looking forward to their opinion of the BFGoodrich tire:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/surve....jsp?type=ORAT

. General Grabber AT 2 - Size: 255/55R18 109H XL
. BFGoodrich All-Terrain T/A KO2 - Size: LT255/55R18 109/105R D

Hope to see you color outside those pesky yellow and white lines!
.