The Toureg Problem
08-16-2013, 03:31 PM
#33
Not sure how many times/ways you have to be told, the P!g is not a Treg in a different frock. There are shared parts, but it's the sum of the whole that you have to look at and decide if the premium is justified for you (or her in this case) over the sibling. The numbers that are used in the marketing materials has never told the full story for any Porsche.
The "purists" bash the Cayenne as not being a real Porsche and even Cayenne owners will bash the base V6 version, but it's a good engine for the vehicle (especially in the lighter 958) if it's primarily going to be a DD and not do much heavy work (it will do the heavy work too, just not quite as nicely as the other engines). There is something special about how a Porsche drives that can't be easily quantified in a sales brochure, but every Porsche has it and that includes the Cayenne.
Even though they share the same VR6 engine, Porsche has still worked it over both physically and it's ECU programming so it has a different performance characteristic.
The suspension is also not shared and the Porsche version (even the steel suspension) gives you a much more positive feel. Many of the changes are subtle until you weigh them together.
I also believe that they use different transmissions (not to mention having a 6MT option for the V6 P!g if you were so inclined). At the minimum the programming for the transmission will be different.
In my opinion even the non-full leather interior is miles ahead of the VW as far as material and finish quality.
Personally I think the 955/957 looks similar to the same year Treg, but the differences are enough that you aren't going to mistake them. I don't think the 958 looks anything like the current Treg.
As I said before, you/her need to decide how the vehicle will be driven most of the time (if she already has a 993, maybe she doesn't need/want an SUV that can be thrown around a track) and then (as others have said) test drive both to see which one is the best fit and if (in the case of the Porsche) the price difference is worth it to you/her.
About the only other thing I can say about the differences is go look at the other performance car companies that also sell SUVs that have car clubs. Then go look at how many of the clubs allow the SUVs in their AutoX and DE events. The earlier poster that mentioned a Cayenne at an AutoX just watched one, I drove mine in one and wiped the smirk off a few of 911 drivers that were making snide comments before the day got started (boys with toys they didn't know how to properly drive).
The "purists" bash the Cayenne as not being a real Porsche and even Cayenne owners will bash the base V6 version, but it's a good engine for the vehicle (especially in the lighter 958) if it's primarily going to be a DD and not do much heavy work (it will do the heavy work too, just not quite as nicely as the other engines). There is something special about how a Porsche drives that can't be easily quantified in a sales brochure, but every Porsche has it and that includes the Cayenne.
Even though they share the same VR6 engine, Porsche has still worked it over both physically and it's ECU programming so it has a different performance characteristic.
The suspension is also not shared and the Porsche version (even the steel suspension) gives you a much more positive feel. Many of the changes are subtle until you weigh them together.
I also believe that they use different transmissions (not to mention having a 6MT option for the V6 P!g if you were so inclined). At the minimum the programming for the transmission will be different.
In my opinion even the non-full leather interior is miles ahead of the VW as far as material and finish quality.
Personally I think the 955/957 looks similar to the same year Treg, but the differences are enough that you aren't going to mistake them. I don't think the 958 looks anything like the current Treg.
As I said before, you/her need to decide how the vehicle will be driven most of the time (if she already has a 993, maybe she doesn't need/want an SUV that can be thrown around a track) and then (as others have said) test drive both to see which one is the best fit and if (in the case of the Porsche) the price difference is worth it to you/her.
About the only other thing I can say about the differences is go look at the other performance car companies that also sell SUVs that have car clubs. Then go look at how many of the clubs allow the SUVs in their AutoX and DE events. The earlier poster that mentioned a Cayenne at an AutoX just watched one, I drove mine in one and wiped the smirk off a few of 911 drivers that were making snide comments before the day got started (boys with toys they didn't know how to properly drive).
08-16-2013, 04:58 PM
#36
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Not sure how many times/ways you have to be told, the P!g is not a Treg in a different frock. There are shared parts, but it's the sum of the whole that you have to look at and decide if the premium is justified for you (or her in this case) over the sibling. The numbers that are used in the marketing materials has never told the full story for any Porsche.
The "purists" bash the Cayenne as not being a real Porsche and even Cayenne owners will bash the base V6 version, but it's a good engine for the vehicle (especially in the lighter 958) if it's primarily going to be a DD and not do much heavy work (it will do the heavy work too, just not quite as nicely as the other engines). There is something special about how a Porsche drives that can't be easily quantified in a sales brochure, but every Porsche has it and that includes the Cayenne.
Even though they share the same VR6 engine, Porsche has still worked it over both physically and it's ECU programming so it has a different performance characteristic.
The suspension is also not shared and the Porsche version (even the steel suspension) gives you a much more positive feel. Many of the changes are subtle until you weigh them together.
I also believe that they use different transmissions (not to mention having a 6MT option for the V6 P!g if you were so inclined). At the minimum the programming for the transmission will be different.
In my opinion even the non-full leather interior is miles ahead of the VW as far as material and finish quality.
Personally I think the 955/957 looks similar to the same year Treg, but the differences are enough that you aren't going to mistake them. I don't think the 958 looks anything like the current Treg.
As I said before, you/her need to decide how the vehicle will be driven most of the time (if she already has a 993, maybe she doesn't need/want an SUV that can be thrown around a track) and then (as others have said) test drive both to see which one is the best fit and if (in the case of the Porsche) the price difference is worth it to you/her.
About the only other thing I can say about the differences is go look at the other performance car companies that also sell SUVs that have car clubs. Then go look at how many of the clubs allow the SUVs in their AutoX and DE events. The earlier poster that mentioned a Cayenne at an AutoX just watched one, I drove mine in one and wiped the smirk off a few of 911 drivers that were making snide comments before the day got started (boys with toys they didn't know how to properly drive).
The "purists" bash the Cayenne as not being a real Porsche and even Cayenne owners will bash the base V6 version, but it's a good engine for the vehicle (especially in the lighter 958) if it's primarily going to be a DD and not do much heavy work (it will do the heavy work too, just not quite as nicely as the other engines). There is something special about how a Porsche drives that can't be easily quantified in a sales brochure, but every Porsche has it and that includes the Cayenne.
Even though they share the same VR6 engine, Porsche has still worked it over both physically and it's ECU programming so it has a different performance characteristic.
The suspension is also not shared and the Porsche version (even the steel suspension) gives you a much more positive feel. Many of the changes are subtle until you weigh them together.
I also believe that they use different transmissions (not to mention having a 6MT option for the V6 P!g if you were so inclined). At the minimum the programming for the transmission will be different.
In my opinion even the non-full leather interior is miles ahead of the VW as far as material and finish quality.
Personally I think the 955/957 looks similar to the same year Treg, but the differences are enough that you aren't going to mistake them. I don't think the 958 looks anything like the current Treg.
As I said before, you/her need to decide how the vehicle will be driven most of the time (if she already has a 993, maybe she doesn't need/want an SUV that can be thrown around a track) and then (as others have said) test drive both to see which one is the best fit and if (in the case of the Porsche) the price difference is worth it to you/her.
About the only other thing I can say about the differences is go look at the other performance car companies that also sell SUVs that have car clubs. Then go look at how many of the clubs allow the SUVs in their AutoX and DE events. The earlier poster that mentioned a Cayenne at an AutoX just watched one, I drove mine in one and wiped the smirk off a few of 911 drivers that were making snide comments before the day got started (boys with toys they didn't know how to properly drive).
You mention steel suspension which implies to me that the P has an alloy one which reduces unsprung and reciprocating mass. Is that true? Is this called sport suspension or what?
My original take was that the P was the same unibody and shell but that most other elements had been changed. My wife said her research indicated that wasn't so but that they were different only in non-performance elements. I will pay for performance and refinement, but not for badge engineering so your post's specifics about the elements of change is quite informative and pretty much unique to this thread. Perhaps you saw me being told those things over and over, but I missed them.
I hope we get one and if it's the P, I plan on being the first Porsche to go over Engineer's Pass in CO. Well, I think I'd be the first but probably not.
08-16-2013, 05:27 PM
#37
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Regarding the autocross comparison, I think the driver is an important factor.
I could put my wife in an RBR9 chassis and I could beat her in a Ford Pinto.
Just because one driver in a Cayenne beat a driver in a 911 doesn't say much.
As brilliant as Porsche mechanical engineers are, Sir Isaac still wins.
I could put my wife in an RBR9 chassis and I could beat her in a Ford Pinto.
Just because one driver in a Cayenne beat a driver in a 911 doesn't say much.
As brilliant as Porsche mechanical engineers are, Sir Isaac still wins.
08-16-2013, 06:06 PM
#38
Team Owner
Thread Starter
I will agree the driver is the key in an autocross but the vehicle is material as well. The 911's and other P-cars which had worse times weren't driven by great drivers but they were driven by competent ones. Another driver, even a superb one, in, say, an Escape or an Explorer or a 'scalde would not be able to do what that Cayenne did time-wise.
OK, I"m hardly a car expert but I saw that car run the course competently which is more than I thought any SUV could do.
OK, I"m hardly a car expert but I saw that car run the course competently which is more than I thought any SUV could do.
08-16-2013, 07:04 PM
#39
Rennlist Member
We have owned two Touareg's, a 2005 V8 and a 2009 V6. We considered the new 2013 Touareg Diesel but ended up with a new 2012 BMW X5. The Touareg was a better looking vehicle, but the deal on the X5 with all the incentives made it the better choice for us.
The new diesel technology is fantastic. Absolutely no foul odor or smoke at all.
I ride a Triumph Bonnie as my daily so I can appreciate clean running vehicles.
I can't comment on the Cayenne as I've never driven one, however we do have a 997.2 as well as a 911SC.
Good luck in your decision. Which ever you decide upon will be a great choice!
John
The new diesel technology is fantastic. Absolutely no foul odor or smoke at all.
I ride a Triumph Bonnie as my daily so I can appreciate clean running vehicles.
I can't comment on the Cayenne as I've never driven one, however we do have a 997.2 as well as a 911SC.
Good luck in your decision. Which ever you decide upon will be a great choice!
John
08-16-2013, 07:21 PM
#40
RL Community Team
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...
Last edited by Needsdecaf; 08-16-2013 at 07:42 PM.
08-16-2013, 07:28 PM
#41
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Wow, guys, this turned into The Marriage Thread!
I sure have heard of women who blame their husbands and make this or that demand on them or that you cannot win an argument, but we aren't like that. If I have a rational argument, I 'win' but I don't view it as winning in the sense of a competition but we collaborate on finding the better path.
Here, while I aesthetically greatly prefer to own a P over a V, if the V is the same and the interior is the one my wife prefers, then I have no issues going V. My reason for posting is that I didn't think that Porsche would take a V car, leave it essentially unchanged, slap a gold shield on it and call it a P-car.
It seems I had it wrong and that's what Porsche did here.
As to driving both - sure - we do plan on that, but I wanted some added info (if there is any possible to add) as 'look fors' while doing a walk around and the test drive.
I sure have heard of women who blame their husbands and make this or that demand on them or that you cannot win an argument, but we aren't like that. If I have a rational argument, I 'win' but I don't view it as winning in the sense of a competition but we collaborate on finding the better path.
Here, while I aesthetically greatly prefer to own a P over a V, if the V is the same and the interior is the one my wife prefers, then I have no issues going V. My reason for posting is that I didn't think that Porsche would take a V car, leave it essentially unchanged, slap a gold shield on it and call it a P-car.
It seems I had it wrong and that's what Porsche did here.
As to driving both - sure - we do plan on that, but I wanted some added info (if there is any possible to add) as 'look fors' while doing a walk around and the test drive.
However, the Touareg is a solid car in its own right. Its not the same, but its not like, going from a great vehicle to a ****ty one. Bottom line, if she prefers it, there's no reason to run away from it.
08-16-2013, 07:33 PM
#42
RL Community Team
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You lost me with this one. Driven a new one? No odor or soot whatsoever.
08-16-2013, 07:41 PM
#43
RL Community Team
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Thanks. Let me explain two things. First, I was the guy at the autocross and the Cayenne did beat some of the 911's. That originally got my attention. Second, I asked so when we personally inspect the two, I wanted to know things to look for.
You mention steel suspension which implies to me that the P has an alloy one which reduces unsprung and reciprocating mass. Is that true? Is this called sport suspension or what?
My original take was that the P was the same unibody and shell but that most other elements had been changed. My wife said her research indicated that wasn't so but that they were different only in non-performance elements. I will pay for performance and refinement, but not for badge engineering so your post's specifics about the elements of change is quite informative and pretty much unique to this thread. Perhaps you saw me being told those things over and over, but I missed them.
I hope we get one and if it's the P, I plan on being the first Porsche to go over Engineer's Pass in CO. Well, I think I'd be the first but probably not.
Gnats post is pretty on the money and non-biased. Like I said, small differences add up to a lot.
FWIW, we were considering a Touareg TDI Exec and realized that if you option it up that much, you are knocking on the door of 60k. That's a lot of green for a VW, even a good one, with a 3/36 warranty. Stepping to the Porsche opens up many more options, much better seats, better handling, the ability to get active dampers and air suspension, etc. Although we paid a sizable premium, we are both very happy to have made the decision.
The CD is my wife's DD and she was more than in board with spending the extra $$ . I did not talk her into it at all
08-16-2013, 07:55 PM
#44
I "knew" going into the AutoX that it was built to be able to do that stuff, but (as with most) I didn't really believe it. I was floored by what it can do and I don't have any of the performance options on it. If I was going to seriously compete with one I would want those options as well as bigger brakes and lower profile tires (that alone would have made the biggest difference for me), but I just did it to get a good understanding of what it can do with me behind the wheel.
You mention steel suspension which implies to me that the P has an alloy one which reduces unsprung and reciprocating mass. Is that true? Is this called sport suspension or what?
Edit: Three! They offer three options! I always forget PASM (I associate it with Air, but it is separate).
Absolutely which is why I referred to boys not knowing how to use their toys. I'm far from an expert driver myself though. The point is that it is quite capable in an environment where you'd have to be insane to take most/any other SUVs and it doesn't embarrass itself by any stretch either. Of course it's no Boxter/Cayman (or 911), but they are nothing to laugh off either.
08-17-2013, 11:32 AM
#45
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Will a '14 stink in 40k miles? I don't know but the '10 models (etc.) do.
Yeah, I appreciate gnat's posts and glad we got away from the battle of the sexes for a bit.