scca stock class becoming street class!
01-16-2015, 12:43 PM
#377
Not to be coy, but do you have PROOF that these options are installed at the factory and not at the dealership? I don't think you'll have any protest issues regarding suspension options, but wheels have been a contentious issue and despite a lot of circumstantial evidence (including Porsche promotional photos of a ceremony at the factory with a Cayman in the background with optional wheels), we're still lacking that hard proof that would satisfy all doubters.
Could you pick up your car with European Delivery at Stuttgart with those wheels on it in 1999?
Yes.
This is all explained if you go through and read the exclusive program outline.
That's basically my argument, I have documentation to support it. A protester would have to prove that you could not, in fact, have picked up the car from the factory with those wheels on it.
01-16-2015, 12:52 PM
#378
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Most interesting. I wonder if a limited slip was a Porsche exclusive option for '00-'03 996es?
FWIW, at first read I'd give this a good chance of holding up. I need to think it over more, but I like it.
FWIW, at first read I'd give this a good chance of holding up. I need to think it over more, but I like it.
01-16-2015, 02:00 PM
#379
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I think the key is could it be delivered to the U.S. We already know of an Italian 40th AE being delivered with gt3 buckets and rear seat delete, without the dealer installing anything. The porsche exclusive option codes are on the sticker.
Keep in mind that these unicorn builds are EXACTLY what the SCCA seeks to avoid, and yes we will see (more) unfavorable class bumping if it is determined that we can show up with x74, bigger wheels, bucket seats, etc.
How would we prove that it was US deliverable?
Keep in mind that these unicorn builds are EXACTLY what the SCCA seeks to avoid, and yes we will see (more) unfavorable class bumping if it is determined that we can show up with x74, bigger wheels, bucket seats, etc.
How would we prove that it was US deliverable?
01-16-2015, 02:49 PM
#380
My argument is that Porsches are so unfavorably classed already that we need the unicorn options to be able to compete.
My other thought is that most competitors will have no ****ing clue about Porsches and options in the first place, particularly if we keep our mouths shut regarding what we're equipped with and just reply "stock".
We don't have to prove that the stuff was actually delivered here - just that it COULD be delivered here (sort of like a no-sunroof car - they're rumored to exist but nobody has evern seen one).
All we need to do is show written option sheets and verify that they're legit, and then wait for the protestor to actually prove that we're wrong (which they won't be able to do).
My other thought is that most competitors will have no ****ing clue about Porsches and options in the first place, particularly if we keep our mouths shut regarding what we're equipped with and just reply "stock".
We don't have to prove that the stuff was actually delivered here - just that it COULD be delivered here (sort of like a no-sunroof car - they're rumored to exist but nobody has evern seen one).
All we need to do is show written option sheets and verify that they're legit, and then wait for the protestor to actually prove that we're wrong (which they won't be able to do).
01-16-2015, 03:01 PM
#381
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FWIW there also exists out there a 40th with factory PCCBs! Not that any of us have the coin to backfit that.
I guess I just don't like drama. I run my Gt3 bucket at local events because I don't think anyone cares, and as we've said it looks like it could be legal.
Even there I have gotten questions. The porsche crest embossed in the leather puts most people at ease.
So who wants to put it on the line at a national level event?
I guess I just don't like drama. I run my Gt3 bucket at local events because I don't think anyone cares, and as we've said it looks like it could be legal.
Even there I have gotten questions. The porsche crest embossed in the leather puts most people at ease.
So who wants to put it on the line at a national level event?
01-16-2015, 03:42 PM
#382
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Once I take the leap and actually buy a 996 I will absolutely do it. I'd like to be able to run one, and if it helps others discern what constitutes legal or not I'd be happy to talk to someone and have them protest me.
Hell, leave the GT3 seats in for the Dixie tour and I'll find someone to protest you. I'll even provide the fee. I'd do it myself, but I'll be in Amelia Island for the Concours. There's no shame in an intentional protest for the sake of clarity.
Hell, leave the GT3 seats in for the Dixie tour and I'll find someone to protest you. I'll even provide the fee. I'd do it myself, but I'll be in Amelia Island for the Concours. There's no shame in an intentional protest for the sake of clarity.
01-16-2015, 04:31 PM
#384
Is there any way to go through the process without actually filing a protest at an event?
If a protest is filed and denied, is that a precedent for the future too?
It's like the whole XRR 987 wheel thing all over again.
If a protest is filed and denied, is that a precedent for the future too?
It's like the whole XRR 987 wheel thing all over again.
01-16-2015, 06:47 PM
#385
Drifting
Are those wheels installed at the dealership? No.
Could you pick up your car with European Delivery at Stuttgart with those wheels on it in 1999?
Yes.
This is all explained if you go through and read the exclusive program outline.
That's basically my argument, I have documentation to support it. A protester would have to prove that you could not, in fact, have picked up the car from the factory with those wheels on it.
Could you pick up your car with European Delivery at Stuttgart with those wheels on it in 1999?
Yes.
This is all explained if you go through and read the exclusive program outline.
That's basically my argument, I have documentation to support it. A protester would have to prove that you could not, in fact, have picked up the car from the factory with those wheels on it.
One thing we lack is anything recorded in years past showing this stuff actually was installed at the factory vice the dealership. Do you know for sure those options are compatible with European delivery? I've been taking screen shots of the Porsche configurator the past few years with all the unicorn options selected to show that these options were, indeed, available on 981s with european delivery and thus available as factory-installed options, but nobody has presented similar for 996 or 997 generations.
01-17-2015, 12:11 PM
#386
Three Wheelin'
...another question to answer is will all these "options" really make that big a difference in the final results. My view is unless you are a National Championship caliber driver and are trying to find an extra 1/10 of second from the next competitor, the expected advantages of the "options" will be lost in driver "inefficiency".
Don't get me wrong....we all enjoy tweaking our cars
Don't get me wrong....we all enjoy tweaking our cars
01-18-2015, 01:24 AM
#387
Porsche Exclusive may meet the letter of the law as it's written today, but it definitely doesn't meet the spirit, and if someone tries to pull off arguing that Exclusive options are legal at a national-level event, they'll pretty much just ensure that Porsches will be classed yet more conservatively in the future.
As an aside, I'm sure you'll disregard this advice, but if you're planning to do well at national-level events in 2016, you're going about it all wrong. Instead of scheming ways to build a car that will have a 0.1 second advantage before it gets you disqualified, you should be planning which national-level events you'll be doing in 201*5* so that you have some experience under your belt come 2016.
As an aside, I'm sure you'll disregard this advice, but if you're planning to do well at national-level events in 2016, you're going about it all wrong. Instead of scheming ways to build a car that will have a 0.1 second advantage before it gets you disqualified, you should be planning which national-level events you'll be doing in 201*5* so that you have some experience under your belt come 2016.
01-18-2015, 01:33 AM
#388
Burning Brakes
...
My first thought - STANDARD PART
Defined as:
Porsche Exclusive options SEEM to fit this description based on what Porsche says on their website. They are installed at the factory and they are delivered with the car.
http://www.porsche.com/usa/accessori...ces/exclusive/
Tequipment definitely does NOT meet this definition because it's a dealer installed option.
This means X74 suspension may be a reality because it was an Exclusive option.
X51 package is definitely in there - which was apparently available with the '99s - if you feel like spending money on new heads, cams, headers, cats, tune and whatever the hell else was included in the X51. No idea where one would get those parts.
I also believe this includes the rear seat delete option. Could I have ordered, from the factory, rear seat deletes through Exclusive? Yes. Legal in stock. Just cite the proper option code (XSN) and provide the documentation.
I would argue that the race bucket seat option is also included (XSE/XSF) under this definition.
I would also argue that the GT3 Wheel Option (416) is legit - you could have ordered them on the car in 1999 because the Mk.1 GT3 was available in 1999. The GT3 itself was not available in America in 1999 but the wheels were available through the order guide on American cars, and installed on the factory assembly line.
KEEP IN MIND - here's the burden of proof on protests:
So worst case scenario, you show up with legit documentation and they STILL say you're wrong, the burden now shifts on the protestor to actually prove what you have is illegal. So, they have to prove a negative . . . . not that it matters because we're just gonna get our asses kicked in AS by the Z06 and in BS by the C5 (I was actually going to build my second CS Boxster until they got moved to BS . . )
I'll give you guys one guess what I do for a living.
My first thought - STANDARD PART
Defined as:
Porsche Exclusive options SEEM to fit this description based on what Porsche says on their website. They are installed at the factory and they are delivered with the car.
http://www.porsche.com/usa/accessori...ces/exclusive/
Tequipment definitely does NOT meet this definition because it's a dealer installed option.
This means X74 suspension may be a reality because it was an Exclusive option.
X51 package is definitely in there - which was apparently available with the '99s - if you feel like spending money on new heads, cams, headers, cats, tune and whatever the hell else was included in the X51. No idea where one would get those parts.
I also believe this includes the rear seat delete option. Could I have ordered, from the factory, rear seat deletes through Exclusive? Yes. Legal in stock. Just cite the proper option code (XSN) and provide the documentation.
I would argue that the race bucket seat option is also included (XSE/XSF) under this definition.
I would also argue that the GT3 Wheel Option (416) is legit - you could have ordered them on the car in 1999 because the Mk.1 GT3 was available in 1999. The GT3 itself was not available in America in 1999 but the wheels were available through the order guide on American cars, and installed on the factory assembly line.
KEEP IN MIND - here's the burden of proof on protests:
So worst case scenario, you show up with legit documentation and they STILL say you're wrong, the burden now shifts on the protestor to actually prove what you have is illegal. So, they have to prove a negative . . . . not that it matters because we're just gonna get our asses kicked in AS by the Z06 and in BS by the C5 (I was actually going to build my second CS Boxster until they got moved to BS . . )
I'll give you guys one guess what I do for a living.
01-18-2015, 09:58 AM
#389
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I just want to live in a world where I don't fear of falling out the window due to the world's most unsupportive seats. If they were to outlaw torso belts, I would have to get a different car.
