Should the Cayenne be allowed to Autocross?
07-17-2003, 05:11 PM
#31
Nordschleife Master
Ed said nothing about center of gravity, but rather mentioned that the NHTSA said the BMW 3 series is a serious roll over hazard.
Center of gravity is not the only thing that determines how easily a vehicle will flip.
Center of gravity is not the only thing that determines how easily a vehicle will flip.
07-17-2003, 05:16 PM
#32
Race Director
I just have two concerns about the Pepper-wagon on the track for DE events:
1. Brake pads: A two-driver Cayenne attended two events, and the rear pads were totally shot! In my region, we will be requiring owners to bring proof of recently installed pads, or bring a spare set to the track.
2. Lug nut torque specs: until now, all street P-cars had a torque spec of 94 to 96 ft. lbs. for the lug nuts. The Cayenne has a requirement of 118 ft. lbs. This needs to be brought to the attention of all tech inspectors of DE events.
-Z-man (NNJR PCA Track tech co-chair)
1. Brake pads: A two-driver Cayenne attended two events, and the rear pads were totally shot! In my region, we will be requiring owners to bring proof of recently installed pads, or bring a spare set to the track.
2. Lug nut torque specs: until now, all street P-cars had a torque spec of 94 to 96 ft. lbs. for the lug nuts. The Cayenne has a requirement of 118 ft. lbs. This needs to be brought to the attention of all tech inspectors of DE events.
-Z-man (NNJR PCA Track tech co-chair)
07-18-2003, 12:19 PM
#33
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Well... here is my 2 cents.
The main purpose for autox is to both teach people good driving skills in a safe environment as well as giving people a venue to practice and hone those skills. That way when someone is put into an emergency situation on the street - they know the limits of their cars and what to do & not to do.
The secondary purpose is that it is a competitive timed event. I call this a secondary purpose because few people actually compete in enough autox to win an award and even those that win rarely pick them up.
So if you subscribe to the principles above then Cayenne's SHOULD BE ALLOWED to participate in any PCA event so long as it is safe for the car to do so.
Therefore for autox: If the car does not flip/roll.... then it should be allowed to participate.
For DE/track: We already require extra safety equipment, those at a minimum must be met. It is possible that additional safety equipment might be required for this type of event in a Cayenne. That equipment needs to be identified and mandated.
As for ego bruising - I'll admit i'd be more than upset if a SUV managed to outrun me in an autox. But that's a personal thing and not consideration for whether or not they run.
Just my 2 cents.
Cheers,
Boris
The main purpose for autox is to both teach people good driving skills in a safe environment as well as giving people a venue to practice and hone those skills. That way when someone is put into an emergency situation on the street - they know the limits of their cars and what to do & not to do.
The secondary purpose is that it is a competitive timed event. I call this a secondary purpose because few people actually compete in enough autox to win an award and even those that win rarely pick them up.
So if you subscribe to the principles above then Cayenne's SHOULD BE ALLOWED to participate in any PCA event so long as it is safe for the car to do so.
Therefore for autox: If the car does not flip/roll.... then it should be allowed to participate.
For DE/track: We already require extra safety equipment, those at a minimum must be met. It is possible that additional safety equipment might be required for this type of event in a Cayenne. That equipment needs to be identified and mandated.
As for ego bruising - I'll admit i'd be more than upset if a SUV managed to outrun me in an autox. But that's a personal thing and not consideration for whether or not they run.
Just my 2 cents.
Cheers,
Boris
07-19-2003, 03:38 PM
#34
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So the PCA should allow Cayennes until someone gets killed? Or will it be enough when the first one tips over? That doesn't sound like very proactive stance regarding safety.
Until the Cayenne was produced would any PCA region allow any SUV to autocross? So what's different now? The badge on the front? How does that magically change the physics?
Until the Cayenne was produced would any PCA region allow any SUV to autocross? So what's different now? The badge on the front? How does that magically change the physics?
Last edited by Paul Foster; 07-19-2003 at 03:45 PM.
07-19-2003, 06:03 PM
#35
Race Director
We've had a Dodge Durango autox a couple of years ago. IIRC, the car only ran in the morning: not sure if he left because he was told to, or if he just had to leave.
Regarding the Cayenne and autox: I have seen several Cayennes autox: both the Cayenne S and the TurboS: while the vehicle is a bit heavier than most cars out there, it seems that the SUV was easy to control. I've seen both rookies and veterans driving the Cayenne. The autox times are similar to times that the 944's were running, BTW.
Paul: while I have not driven the Cayenne myself, I have seen it perform admirably on both the track and at the autox. I do not understand your dislike for this vehicle. While it is badged as an SUV, it is very similar in size and height as some of the 'cross-over' vehicles currently on the road (Audi, Volvo...etc). Perhaps you should test drive one to find out first hand how well the SUV handles.
Just my $0.42,
-Z-man.
Regarding the Cayenne and autox: I have seen several Cayennes autox: both the Cayenne S and the TurboS: while the vehicle is a bit heavier than most cars out there, it seems that the SUV was easy to control. I've seen both rookies and veterans driving the Cayenne. The autox times are similar to times that the 944's were running, BTW.
Paul: while I have not driven the Cayenne myself, I have seen it perform admirably on both the track and at the autox. I do not understand your dislike for this vehicle. While it is badged as an SUV, it is very similar in size and height as some of the 'cross-over' vehicles currently on the road (Audi, Volvo...etc). Perhaps you should test drive one to find out first hand how well the SUV handles.
Just my $0.42,
-Z-man.
07-20-2003, 10:50 PM
#37
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The fact that SUV drivers have had their insurance rates increased due to the fact that statistically the passengers in the cars they hit rarely survive.
Gives me good reason to avoid racing them on the track.
Shouldn’t they be four wheeling off road?
Gives me good reason to avoid racing them on the track.
Shouldn’t they be four wheeling off road?
07-21-2003, 06:30 AM
#38
If a car is road-worthy then it should be allowed to take part providing its size is suitable for the course (no greyhound buses...). I think waiting to see how the Cayenne performs before deciding is arrogant. I bet plenty of drivers of sedans will have their 'asses handed to them' as it is so quaintly put. I read an article where they had ongoing track comparisons of various different cars recently, and the Cayenne was within a few tenths of a second of the time set by the latest BMW M3. I know autox is not going to be as good for the cayenne, but if anyone bans it on whether it is safe or not then that would be a crime. Jealousy will prevail no doubt...
07-21-2003, 07:40 AM
#39
Rennlist Member
Porsche also made tractors but you don't see anybody wanting to autocross them.
Basically I hate all SUVs including the Cayenne. I want no part of them and I think they are going to cause a catastrophe that may endanger autocrossing or DE. The SCCA does not permit any SUVs to compete and that includes the Cayenne. Then again they are not the puppets of a German car manufacturer.
I also hold a dim view towards those who purchage any SUV and think they have a sports car instead of a top-heavy boulevard cruiser that is a danger to all the rest of the vehicles on the highway due to their propensity to tip over combined with their sheer weight. There is no such thing as a 4000 lb sports car. It is a contradiction in terms.
Basically I hate all SUVs including the Cayenne. I want no part of them and I think they are going to cause a catastrophe that may endanger autocrossing or DE. The SCCA does not permit any SUVs to compete and that includes the Cayenne. Then again they are not the puppets of a German car manufacturer.
I also hold a dim view towards those who purchage any SUV and think they have a sports car instead of a top-heavy boulevard cruiser that is a danger to all the rest of the vehicles on the highway due to their propensity to tip over combined with their sheer weight. There is no such thing as a 4000 lb sports car. It is a contradiction in terms.
07-21-2003, 03:32 PM
#40
Having seen the people who AutoX the Cayenne, I have few fears about it tipping. On the bottom end of the skill level were people who were fairly inexperienced and might accidently tip it because they couldn't feel the balance until it was too late. On the top end were people who knew how to drive very well and weren't afraid to push the car.
On the track, it's a different story. Having gotten behind a Cayenne Turbo, I can say that were two things I didn't like about it on the track
1) Very hard to see around and past it. I like to look up ahead to see if any troubles are forming so I can take evasive action as early as possible. It's extremely difficult or impossible to do that with the Cayenne in front.
2) When you get right on the rear bumper of the car and you're waiting for the pass signal, it's damn near impossible to see it due to the height differences. This leads to a "I think I saw the arm out the window, must be time to pass" mentality. Given the height discrepency, I can see that this might be a real problem if he wasn't actually giving me the pass signal and he decided to cut across the track right into me...
On the track, it's a different story. Having gotten behind a Cayenne Turbo, I can say that were two things I didn't like about it on the track
1) Very hard to see around and past it. I like to look up ahead to see if any troubles are forming so I can take evasive action as early as possible. It's extremely difficult or impossible to do that with the Cayenne in front.
2) When you get right on the rear bumper of the car and you're waiting for the pass signal, it's damn near impossible to see it due to the height differences. This leads to a "I think I saw the arm out the window, must be time to pass" mentality. Given the height discrepency, I can see that this might be a real problem if he wasn't actually giving me the pass signal and he decided to cut across the track right into me...
07-21-2003, 04:31 PM
#42
I'll add my 2 cents.
They are a hazard on the street and even more so in any racing event. Nothing is more frustrating then getting behind an SUV on the street and having no idea what is in front of you. Basically your driving blind, now put one of these slugs on a track and it gets multiplied by 20.
They should be demolished and banned everywhere.
They are a hazard on the street and even more so in any racing event. Nothing is more frustrating then getting behind an SUV on the street and having no idea what is in front of you. Basically your driving blind, now put one of these slugs on a track and it gets multiplied by 20.
They should be demolished and banned everywhere.
07-21-2003, 07:37 PM
#43
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Paul and Wormhole,
You don't know what you're talking about!
Go drive the Cayenne, autocross it and compare it to a Boxster, 996 etc.
You're biases are getting in the way of your objectivity!
I own a GT2, a 911 X51 and a Cayenne TT.
If you want my opinion, the Cayenne is not going to tip over, I've autocrossed it at the PDE and it handles like a boxster, impressed the hell out of me so I bought it. It is equal to the 996 on the track, slower in corners (weight) and faster on straights. You should see what the pros can do with it (just like the sports cars)
For what it's worth, the GT2 in the wrong hands is a far more dangerous car on a autocross course than a Cayenne, should it be banned too?.
Go drive and then opine...your opinion will be worth a lot more!
You don't know what you're talking about!
Go drive the Cayenne, autocross it and compare it to a Boxster, 996 etc.
You're biases are getting in the way of your objectivity!
I own a GT2, a 911 X51 and a Cayenne TT.
If you want my opinion, the Cayenne is not going to tip over, I've autocrossed it at the PDE and it handles like a boxster, impressed the hell out of me so I bought it. It is equal to the 996 on the track, slower in corners (weight) and faster on straights. You should see what the pros can do with it (just like the sports cars)
For what it's worth, the GT2 in the wrong hands is a far more dangerous car on a autocross course than a Cayenne, should it be banned too?.
Go drive and then opine...your opinion will be worth a lot more!
07-22-2003, 06:12 AM
#44
As you can tell, I basically agree with Colm.
I would think that an SUV is going to be most likely to tip over in an autocross environment and especially in the slaloms. The reason I mentioned the skill levels of the drivers is that some of them are inexperienced enough where they could possibly accidently cause the car to tip and others are experienced enough to know how to push the car to the limits.
What I saw on the autocross circuit was simply amazing. The Cayenne handled a decreasing length slalom better than many of the cars out there. It certainly handled it better than the 996C4 that someone let me borrow.
I think it can handle well on the track and it can definitely be fast. However, I really don't like to have them in front of me as it's difficult to see what is ahead of it. Also, I would think if it ever does go off sideways, it's almost definitely going to tip.
I would think that an SUV is going to be most likely to tip over in an autocross environment and especially in the slaloms. The reason I mentioned the skill levels of the drivers is that some of them are inexperienced enough where they could possibly accidently cause the car to tip and others are experienced enough to know how to push the car to the limits.
What I saw on the autocross circuit was simply amazing. The Cayenne handled a decreasing length slalom better than many of the cars out there. It certainly handled it better than the 996C4 that someone let me borrow.
I think it can handle well on the track and it can definitely be fast. However, I really don't like to have them in front of me as it's difficult to see what is ahead of it. Also, I would think if it ever does go off sideways, it's almost definitely going to tip.
07-22-2003, 06:22 AM
#45
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I once autocrossed a Sonoma pickup truck at the vendor's expense. After about a half a lap out of 2 I caught the truck in front of me and wanted to pass it but the guy in the passenger seat was opposed. When done with the 'run' he asked me how it was and I told him it really needed an LSD badly. That said I'd NEVER buy one much less try to autocross it. Why? It's a top-heavy pickup truck not a sports car.
Enjoy taking your kiddies to their soccer practices thinking they may better survive bad driving on someone's part but please get out of the left lane when you have passed someone because it's no fun even being behind you on the street much less the track.
Enjoy taking your kiddies to their soccer practices thinking they may better survive bad driving on someone's part but please get out of the left lane when you have passed someone because it's no fun even being behind you on the street much less the track.