Paul Foster

And how have 'we' done that? All I've seen so far are some opinions by those who has seen it at an autocross or two. That's hardly what I'd consider to be technically definitive.

I still don't know yours since you failed to answer the questions I posed after your last incredibly rude post so I'll ask you again. Why are you so opinionated on this subject? Do you own or plan to own an SUV? How about your significant other? Do you feel that SUVs are somehow safer than cars? Do you feel that oversized vehicles are inherently unsafe to those who are around them in normal-sized cars?

Brian P

It does seem better than the opinions of those who have never seen it in action.

Paul Foster

Why? Both are mere speculation by people who would probably not be considered experts by anybody, but one happens to agree with your own personal opinion and one doesn't. I'd hardly call that objective.

My case is quite simple. It is an SUV not a car. As such it has a higher cG than any car. Therefore, like all other SUVs, it is in much greater danger of tipping over particularly if you are too aggressive as people typically are at autocrosses. Given that many cars have tipped over at autocrosses it is only reasonable to expect Cayennes to tip over as well.

Brian P

Interesting. So far, we have our anecdotal evidence, which you toss out because we aren't experts. I might mention that one of those people whose opinions you are tossing out happens to be our autocross chair and has probably more years experience than all of us combined...

You have also tossed out the performance of the Porsche experts who have turned incredible times at the Nurburgring because they are ringers.

Furthermore, if you read Pano or Excellence, you will easily find quotes from Hurley Haywood where he compares it favorable to the 996 TT. I guess we should toss that out as well.

So far it seems that the only opinion we should keep is the one who actually hasn't seen it in action?

Are there so few Porsche dealers around you that you aren't able to test drive one? Do you just boycott any autocrosses where they are allowed?

Finally, I just want to be clear on this. Are you suggesting that Porsche ran the car through a slalom test, realized that it will tip over, and then foisted it on the public anyways? Or, do you believe that Porsche doesn't adequately test their vehicles?

Brian P

Let's bring a few facts into the equation:

Consumer Reports Test

Consumer Reports tested 7 vehicles through a high speed slalom (around 40 MPH) and the Mitsubishi Montero tipped, but none of the other 6 SUVs tipped.

I'll ask again - do we believe that Porsche can't figure out something that it appears almost every other car manufacturer can figure out? It would seem a bit odd to me since well handling vehicles seems to be what Porsche is known for.

Also, I've seen the video of the Consumer Reports test and the vehicle's dynamics looked vastly different than the Cayenne's.

PogueMoHone

Paul,

My cars are listed below my signature.

I bought my Cayenne after autocrossing it back to back with a Boxster S at the Porsche Driving Experience. I also autocross (and DE) my GT 2 regularly, so think I know a little about handling.

However, I've been round the track in a Cayenne with Hurley Haywood, Chris Hall and Dave Murray (at speeds well beyond what I can drive at) and this car is not unsafe.

I subscribe to the theory that it is better to watch out for unsafe drivers, than to try and predict unsafe cars. All cars can be driven in an unsafe manner.

Like I said before, go try this thing, with many Porsches under my belt and a sports car handling preference..... it impressed the hell out of me.

It irritates me to see people spew "hot air" on a subject based upon perceptions, and then act like an authority. Empty vessels make the most sound.

The more you write, the more you underscore that you have no personal experience and a generic bias towards SUVs. There are many SUVs which I have owned that I would not take on a track...G500, Range Rover, Landcruiser; and I would argue they cannot be driven safely on the track...but the Cayenne is a completely different driving experience.

I apologize if I was rude. The only time a Cayenne will be dangerous is when it is dangerously driven (IMO)

Paul Foster

I seriously doubt the chairman of NNJR autocrossing has more experience than I do but I guess it's possible. I have over 150 events under my belt including a trip to the SCCA Nationals and a half dozen Pro Solos.

I have been a vocal advocate of autocross safety for over 13 years now which is a very unpopular position to have these days. Everybody wants to go faster and drive virtually any vehicle they desire and the hell with the potential consequences. If this trend keeps up there will be no more autocrossing anywhere.

You look at those photos at the start of this thread and think "Well it didn't tip over that time so it must be safe". I look at them and think "No car I have ever seen at an autocross has ever rolled that much and it's cG is much higher than any car to boot. Danger Will Robinson."

You both claim I am biased yet at least one of you already owns the vehicle in question.

The bottom line is that we 3 happen to disagree about the Cayenne (and apparently UVs in general) and you both have been attempting to discredit me simply because I don't agree with you and I've never seen one in person. I've never seen a hydrogen bomb either but I can still imagine what the consequences of exploding one nearby might be.

History will tell which of us was right. I await your apology at some future date. :P

Brian P

I think we can safely agree to disagree.

PogueMoHone

The hydrogen bomb is unlikely to tip over at an auto-cross, either.

No one is trying to discredit you.

I suggested, a few times, that you could add to your own credibility by test driving this vehicle. Then, you have a more realistic and informed basis for your opinion, as opposed to theoretical speculation.

A test drive doesn't necessarily have you changing your mind...but objectively..it might.

I appreciate and admire your safety concerns, but to deliver your message effectively, it would be best if you were a little more "objective" in your criticisms.

Brian P

Agreed. If you came back and said, "hey I took a corner hard or a slalom fast, and it felt like the SUV was going to go on two wheels", then we might have a reason for concern. Surely, with your vast experience, you should be able to take the SUV to the ragged edge and still be safe, right? We could easily appreciate how a lesser driver might have not been able to save it and would have flipped the car.

On the other hand, I think it's easy for us to sit back and say, "XYZ car has some safety issues - it's an accident waiting to happen." The best part is, we don't even have to know the car. Anybody who owns the car and drives it is biased. Anybody who is actually a good driver is a ringer, and anybody who is a novice isn't expert enough to offer an opinion. In fact, even looking at the pictures that were posted earlier has biased us too much.

Ideally, we should never even look at the vehicle in question before declaring it unsafe!

Paul Foster

OK fine. I give up. You have beaten me into submission with your unending rhetoric. I am obviously biased while you obviously aren't. Driving an SUV as if it's a sports car can't possibly hurt anybody at an autocross, DE, race, or on the highway because owners, Hurley, and Porsche marketing said it can't.

Tick, tick, tick...

PogueMoHone

Maybe it should be,

Thick, Thick, Thick....

or is it,

Sick, Sick, Sick

ERAU-944

come off it paul,

maybe you should have come with us to the cayenne experience in hallandale beach on the 26th... several of us rennlisters (do a search on the 944/951/968 forum for the test drive) went down there and drove the cayenne S and cayenne turbo on the performance track and the offroad track, and i think they most certainly should be able to autocross. the track they had set up was basically an autocross course! people were driving the cayenne through those things with no problem, and only a couple times did they get 'squirrely'. when they did they simply slid, i highly doubt that the cayenne would flip over unless the driver did some off-roading in the middle of his run. i've driven my car on tracks, and let me tell you when i can drive an SUV just like i can drive my car (its undoubtedly faster) and it exhibits the stability near to that of my car, i'd have no qualms letting it into an autocross. what kind of car do you have? something tells me you're afraid to lose to it.

-Michael-

p.s. go experience one, theres nothing like hard evidence to settle a matter. now if they only came in manual...

Z-man

Hmm, maybe we should ban all cars that get their wheels off the ground in the corners.

I guess 911's are unsafe to autocross: I've seen many of them lifting the inside front wheel!

Paul: I understand your concern for safety, but like said before, no matter what autox experience you have, but you really should get off your soapbox until you have first hand experience with SUV's and autox. Heck, you haven't even DRIVEN one on the street. At least do that before casting your vote on the car.

Regards,
-Zoltan.

John Brandt

I imagine Hurley could drive an ice cream truck quicker than a lot of people can drive their 911s. That doesn't prove anything other than Hurley's skill. And face it, Hurley is NOT an objective source, nor is Dave Murry.

AutoX may be one thing, as the only person at risk is the driver (hopefully), But I tremble at the thought of being collected by one of those log-wagons in a racing circuit mishap.
If they have to do Driver's Ed, the pepperwagen should have their own flippin' category.

I don't want to be on course with them.