Brian P

Hey, I don't like the SUV either and I have no intentions of buying one. I'm just saying that they shouldn't be banned from autocrosses. If someone wants to buy one and bring it to an autocross, I'll welcome them. If I can't beat their times, I'll hold my head in shame.

That being said, if the Cayenne owner is a good driver, beating their times is not a trivial matter.

Paul Foster

The sport of autocrossing and the hobby of Drivers Ed suffer a fragile existence. If we lose our insurance there will be no more events. Apparently you see the issue as one of the driver's responsilbility but the attorneys and the courts who actually run things see it quite differently.

Until that changes I shall forever be opposed to allowing Cayennes or any other SUV from participating in an autocross or a DE. The risk is simply too great and the reward is virtually nonexistent.

It also encourages other SUV drivers to drive like they own sports cars instead of top-heavy gas-guzzling people killers.

Z-man

Paul,
Regarding safety at an autocross: accidents are caused more by bad drivers than by bad-handling cars! At a recent autox in my area, a guy with a C5 Vette met up with a curb: not a pretty sight. Problem was two-fold:
1. Bad course design - they tried to 'slow' the cars down before the finish line with a sharp turn.
2. Bad driving: the driver was trying to go faster than the car can handle.
I wasn't at this particular autox, but that's what I heard were the contributing factors.

If you search the web, there's a recent video of yet another C5 Vette loosing it at an autocross and taking out a spectator!

Note that the C5 Vette is considered to be a great handling car! (In SCCA, Solo2, it runs in Super Stock, BTW) Hmm: maybe the Vette should be banned from autox!!

Oh, and you are wrong when you state that SCCA does not permit any SUV's to complete. Here are some eligible SUV's & trucks:

In F-stock: GMC Syclone and Typhoon and all V8 pickups NOC.

In G-stock: Chrysler PT Turbo (not quite an SUV, but close)

In H-stock: Chrysler PT Cruiser and all RWD pickup trucks NOC.

Oh, and I found this quote from a SCCA related site:
"Vehicles that are banned from SOLO2 are also banned from SOLO1. This will include all SUV’s or Pickup trucks that have been raised or have a high center of gravity."
Source: http://www.thscc.com/timetrial/faq.htm

Please be more careful when stating rules of SCCA or other clubs.

Regards,
-Z-man.

Brian P

Reward? Are there cash prizes at your events?

My personal experience is that driving in autocrosses and especially DE's as considerably tamed my normal street driving. What's the point of pushing it in the street if you know that you would never come close to 10/10's anyhow? (And if you do, you are an idiot)

I would think that autocrosses are the perfect environment for teaching these SUV drivers that they aren't driving a sports car. If the car won't flip at an autocross, what's the problem? Are you arguing that a SUV driver is inherently more dangerous on the course because he decided to purchase an SUV rather than a sports car?

Paul Foster

Say what? I stated that SUVs were not allowed which you then go on to state yourself in your research:

So why should I be more careful instead of you?

[EDIT] On further reflection I could see how the GMC Typhoon could be classified as an SUV and I find it somewhat surprising that it is present. Perhaps the SCCA will approve the Cayenne. If so then I'd be willing to change my opinion.

You think it won't and I think it's only a matter of time.

Z-man

Are you referring to the quote from the SCCA sight? That ban is only on all SUV’s or Pickup trucks that have been raised or have a high center of gravity! This BAN does not include ALL SUV's.

As proof, look and see that pickup trucks and some SUV's are classified in the stock SCCA classes, which I pointed out in my post before.

-Z.

Paul Foster

Like I said above in my edit I see you point now at least with the Typhoon. I also did not realize it was classified and I still think it's a mistake. If the SCCA allows the Cayenne then I think the PCA should too.

Brian P

Fair enough. I see where you are going with this...

Cayenne owner shows up at autocross and doesn't push too hard because it's a new car and he's afraid that an SUV might roll. What will probably happen is that he will get some decent times because he's not overdriving the car.

Next event, same driver shows up. He's feeling a bit more confident and is willing to push the car a bit. As he gains confidence, his times still improve, but he's still below the limits of the beast.

After a few more iterations of this, the SUV driver is now feeling really confident, and thinks that the car is immune to tipping. He charges full out through a slalom, and gets into trouble, and boom - the monster tips over.

So... given this chain of events, you think we would likely start seeing problems next year? (i.e., after drivers start to get more confident)

Z-man

Just one more thing:
Perhaps we should ban all 'unsafe' cars from autox, like:
- cars with live rear axles or leaf-springs or are very old (MG's, Lotus, Triumphs, Turners...etc)
- Turbo cars (hey, you don't know when the boost will kick in!)
- The C5 Vette (see above)
- Cars that exhibit snap-oversteer (Boxster, 914, MR2...etc).
- Convertibles
- Cars that are too loud (hey, you won't be able to hear to screams of the people you just ran over!)
- BMW 3-series (based on NTSA's roll-over rating)
- Cars equiped with drum brakes

My point is this: one cannot say a certain type of car should be banned because of it's perceived safety issue. Granted, the Cayenne is a heavy SUV with a higher center of gravity than almost all sports cars. But I don't think that makes the Pepper-wagon an accident waiting to happen at an autocross or track event!

Getting off my soapbox,
-Zoltan.

Paul Foster

Almost all???

Cars like 3 series Bimmers are rolling now on the sticky R tires. In the case of the Typhoon I don't think any showed up to show how dangerous they are but I bet Cayennes do show up.

You can argue all day long that it's the driver's fault when a car goes onto it's roof at an event - at least if he wasn't aided by an obstruction that was too near the course. I personally think it needs to be minimized as much as possible. For the most part that means reasonable course design. If course designers have to account for 4000 lb vehicles that can tip over by looking at them wrong instead of 3 series Bimmers then we are all going to suffer.

Z-man

Paul:
I just saw your edit. (RE: GMC Typhoon & Cayenne). Sorry if I got a little carried away there!

I think the PCA rule varies from region to region. In my region (NNJR), the Cayenne is allowed to participate in both autox and DE-track events. I have seen them participate in both events, and besides the size of the car and not being able to see ahead of it, I have found them to be relatively safe.

Then again, I don't drive a 914, and if I did, perhaps I'd think twice about being on the track side-by-side with a Pepper-wagon!

-Z.

Z-man

I agree: course design is always a compromise: does it favor a faster car or a slower, better handling car? But safety should never be compromised.

As the SUV and cross-over type vehicles start to penetrate into the autox genre, it will give course designers another challenge: design courses that are safe for more varied vehicles!

-Z-man.

Wormhole

Isn’t that an oxymoron, not being able to see ahead of them and relatively safe.

Sure, no doubt they will perform well at autocrossing, but they will then be encouraged to participate at DE’s and other track events, where they are a hazard to all other SPORT CARS behind them.

I think the majority of SUV owners bought them because they got fed up with them on the road, and decided if you can’t beat them, join them.

adrial

The one Cayenne owner I talked to said he bought the Cayenne for towing capacity.

Paul Foster

Well he sure got screwed. I bet a dually would pull over 4 times the load and cost a hell of a lot less!