adrial

Towing capacity + having some good onroad capabilities.

hmintz

I am the Autocross Chairman for Northern NJ Region and we have already run three events in which Cayenne's competed. In all cases they were run by PCA members who also owned a more traditional Porsche. When the Cayenne is well driven it is very competitive, and always safe. NNJR has no hesitation in welcoming Cayenne's to our autocrosses. I am NOT a D.E. regular, but I have heard first hand accounts of the Cayenne at NNJR D.E. events. The Cayenne is very tough on brakes and tires and both should be new prior to the event; and the weight must always be respected.

Paul Foster

And what if it's not well driven? Is it then "always safe" as well? In other words would you ban an aggressive newbie who got it up on 2 wheels one time or would you let him continue to run until he had to call a tow truck?

Brian P

I think you really need to see one in action before you make any more judgments.

At no point did it look like the Cayenne would tip. Just because you think it must tip doesn't make it so.

I think we should also mention that Consumer Reports has a love affair with making SUV's tip and then displaying the results in their magazine. Most car manufacturers know this and try to design their car so it won't tip. Now, some manufacturers don't succeed at this, but I'm willing to give Porsche the benefit of the doubt.

PogueMoHone

When it's not well driven that's what PSM is for, however, when it's driven stupidly that's another matter.

I'm sure we all agree that "stupid" drivers shouldn't be allowed to autocross, irrespective of their choice of sports vehicle.

jabbadeznuts

no

Ron_H

Check out the lap times of the Cayenne on the Nurnbergring. You may temper your opinion about them. Humble might be the better word.

Paul Foster

I don't really care how fast it go go around the Nurbergring with the best ringer they could find. The simple fact of the matter is that they have a much higher center of gravity and are much heavier than any vehicle that has been allowed to participate so far. As long as someone has a valid drivers license and in some cases a PCA membership they can enter a PCA autocross. I happen to think this is a deadly combination but only time will tell.

However, if the SCCA allows the Cayenne to autocross then I can't really see how the PCA could say no.

I just hope I never see one at a DE in my run group. I'd feel like a Formula Atlantic sharing the track with a GT1 car.

And did I already say I think SUVs are probably the most stupid vehicles ever devised by man? I don't see them being legitimized simply because Porsche made the collossal mistake of building them instead of a 944 replacement.

PogueMoHone

Paul,

I did a high speed event this weekend, there was a Cayenne TT there, and it performed very well.

There were several S2000s there as well, one of them flipped, (instructor hurt, not seriously I hope). Do you suppose it was the high center of gravity that made the Honda flip ?

No, I didn't think so...but I'll bet if the Cayenne had flipped, you'd be blaming it on the high center of gravity.

It's time for you to educate yourself about this vehicles abilities, and then your opinions might count for something.

You appear to be far too close-minded to be taken seriously! Isn't the Boxster the 944 replacement (slightly modified)

When a Cayenne rolls, like all cars, it will most likely be due to some external topographical factor, embankment etc. and not it's relative center of gravity. And certainly never on an autocross without some incredibly stupid and possibly criminal behavior.

DJF1

I agree here with you 100%. While I have no problem with the Peppers doing AutoX I do have a serious problem with them doing DE's. Its bad enough we have to drive around moving mountains on the street which block your view, I just cannot imagine doing that on the track with them. Imagine missing an accident or a flag ahead of you because you have a moving mountain blocking most of your forward view. DE's are fun and the only time you are able to stretch the legs of our cars without worrying about oncoming traffic, pedestrians ( unless you run at Silverstone ) and trucks... BTW since Porsche is hyping so much their off road ability why not have PCA sanction offroad DE events for the C owners?

SteveG

Yea, run'em in the mud where they belong, I mean the SUV is supposed to be an off road vehicle, isn't it? Not a problem. The sad thing is 95% of them are never used off road, so you are lugging around, what, 1000 lbs of trans and suspension that you don't use. A friend of mine is going to buy a Dodge Hemi for $35K, he doesn't need a truck, let alone that monster. I'm old and looking for retirement, he's young and stupid and renting.

Paul Foster

Colm,

It simply doesn't matter that one Cayenne didn't flip while one S2000 did. Statisticians would state the sample size is way to small to form any sort of reasonable judgement. As you stated most rollovers at the track are due to other reasons but that doesn't pertain to autocrosses which are specifically designed to be done of flat surfaces with nothing to hit besides cones and slow workers.

Once again, like all other SUVs the Cayenne has a much higher center of gravity so it will be much more likely to flip over time than the S2000 or any other sports car for that matter. That statement is based on simple physics instead of fuzzy marketing and individuals' perceptions though.

However, I really doubt the instructor in the S2000 would have been seriously hurt if the car had been equipped with a proper height roll bar instead of the seat protectors it has like the Boxster. Are you now ready to forbid Boxsters from DEs that don't have real roll bars? Before the Boxster came along that was an inflexible rule at every PCA region that I know about.

And no, I'd say the Boxster is the 914 replacement not the 944 replacement. A new front-engined mid-priced sports car may not make Porsche the same profits a SUV will but at least we wouldn't be arguing if it should even be allowed at events for safety reasons.

And no, the Cayenne is an SUV not a car. It may handle better than other SUVs and it may out-accelerate a heck of a lot of cars but it's still an SUV.

You questioned my judgement and motives so now I'll question yours. Why are you so in favor of allowing them at our events? Do you own an SUV or are you interesting in purchasing one? What does your SO drive? Why?

Brian P

You can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that all SUVs will tip on a level surface if driven to their extremes. My best guess is that a slalom is going to be the most likely tipping conditions for any vehicle (again, on a level surface) and it didn't appear that the Cayennes I saw were in any trouble.

As I said before, I'm willing to give Porsche the benefit of the doubt that they actually designed a SUV that will at least avoid tipping on a level surface. Hence, I think they should be allowed in autocrosses.

In DE's, I have my reservations. I certainly did not appreciate the times that I had one in front of me and my vision was restricted. Fortunately, those times were limited and there wasn't a yellow flag to be missed. I agree that sooner or later, someone is going to get hurt because of that, and it most likely won't be the Cayenne driver.

PogueMoHone

Well we've established that the Cayenene is unlikely to tip at an autocross (barring stupid or criminal behavior). Therefore it should be allowed to autocross.

As for the DE, is the issue of size (pertaining to the car in front of you) really relevant? To see flags shouldn't one be looking for the corner workers (or off to the side), not straight ahead?

It's well established that the Cayenne is very capable on the track, so if the individuals following it are capable and experienced, then there should be no issue. If the individual driiving the Cayenne is inexperienced, then those running the event will have presumably taken precautionary measures..like matching groups or placing an X below the number.

Where's the beef? I understand the bias!

Brian P

I guess it's a matter of how close you get to the car in front of you. The closer you get, the harder it is to see around the side of the Cayenne. Also, I'd like to see the flaggers from way back on the track. Again, the size of the Cayenne effectively cuts off a lot of the viewable angle.

Plus, when you get up close to it, it's really difficult to see the point-by.

I'll have to see if I have any videotape that will show what I mean.