Should the Cayenne be allowed to Autocross?
08-11-2003, 03:02 PM
#91
I imagine Hurley could drive an ice cream truck quicker than a lot of people can drive their 911s. That doesn't prove anything other than Hurley's skill. And face it, Hurley is NOT an objective source, nor is Dave Murry.
However, who should we use as objective drivers? Someone whose experience is beyond reproach? A novice? Someone who's an intermediate driver? Can't we safely assume that Porsche at least did some rollover tests on their own and tried to design the car so that it won't flip on a level surface?
Regarding the "Cayenne and DE" question, I don't like being out there with them either. I'm not worried about being collected by them. I'm worried that I won't be able to see something that occurred directly in front of them and I won't have time to react by the time I finally see the incident.
08-12-2003, 06:57 PM
#92
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Cayenne and DE" question
Drivers Eduction events are supposed to be just that: Education Events. If you are driving in such a manner that you put yourself and others in danger because you are tailgating a larger vehicle or otherwise positioning yourself in such a way that you cannot view see passing signals or flagging stations, then you should be black flagged and removed from the event. It is YOU that is creating the potential problem here.
I'd also say that the Cayenne is probably a much safer car to be in in a rollover than any of the Porsche Convertibles or Targas, in that the restraint system is next generational with Front and side airbags and curtains, and that the roof superstructure is much stronger and impact resistant that any of the fore-mentioned cars.
Are there valid issues with Cayenne's on the track - absolutely. But probably no more than any time you have a variety of different cars on the track at the same time. Which is more dangerous, a Cayenne running with some similar speed cars (996/986S) (where you might not actually see it for an entire session if you start yourself ahead of it in the grid), or having 996TT's coming suddenly up on 914 1.7's in the middle of high-speed corners?
Being a good driver is more than just being able to drive fast, it is being able to adapt and respond to all the conditions that the track and the things on the track throw at you.
I'd also say that the Cayenne is probably a much safer car to be in in a rollover than any of the Porsche Convertibles or Targas, in that the restraint system is next generational with Front and side airbags and curtains, and that the roof superstructure is much stronger and impact resistant that any of the fore-mentioned cars.
Are there valid issues with Cayenne's on the track - absolutely. But probably no more than any time you have a variety of different cars on the track at the same time. Which is more dangerous, a Cayenne running with some similar speed cars (996/986S) (where you might not actually see it for an entire session if you start yourself ahead of it in the grid), or having 996TT's coming suddenly up on 914 1.7's in the middle of high-speed corners?
Being a good driver is more than just being able to drive fast, it is being able to adapt and respond to all the conditions that the track and the things on the track throw at you.
08-12-2003, 07:15 PM
#93
First, you can't see in front of the Cayenne. It doesn't matter if you are tailgaiting or not. The area directly in front of the Cayenne won't be visible by you unless you are also driving a Cayenne. Tailgating increases the amount of area that can't be seen, but there will always be some amount of area that is blocked. The same can not be said with any other Porsche.
Second, I'll take some responsibility for getting too close to the Cayennne. However, in the higher run groups, I see cars driving closer together - not farther. Furthermore, if you want that passing signal, you aren't going to get it if you are hanging out about 10-20 car lengths back. Also, I'm driving a stock 2.5L Boxster. If I lift or brake so that I don't get too close to the Cayenne Turbo, I can basically forget about passing it.
Third, have you ever been on the highway and pass a big semi just at the same time that you were also passing a road sign? All of a sudden, you realize that you might have missed the sign that tells you when your exit is. It's the same deal with a Cayenne. As you go from behind it, around it, and then in front of it, at some point your vision is going to get obscured. The same can not be said with other Porsches.
Yes, it's a low percentage chance that my vision is going to be obscured just at the point that I really need to see something. And, given how rare flags are used to begin with, the two combined make it a really low percentage chance. I, for one, am still uncomfortable with it.
Finally, at our last event the Cayenne Turbo had worn down its brakes to practically nothing by the end of the event. This shouldn't be too surprising as that's a lot of weight to stop. However, I'd hate to be the car in front when they guy realizes that he no longer has any brakes.
Second, I'll take some responsibility for getting too close to the Cayennne. However, in the higher run groups, I see cars driving closer together - not farther. Furthermore, if you want that passing signal, you aren't going to get it if you are hanging out about 10-20 car lengths back. Also, I'm driving a stock 2.5L Boxster. If I lift or brake so that I don't get too close to the Cayenne Turbo, I can basically forget about passing it.
Third, have you ever been on the highway and pass a big semi just at the same time that you were also passing a road sign? All of a sudden, you realize that you might have missed the sign that tells you when your exit is. It's the same deal with a Cayenne. As you go from behind it, around it, and then in front of it, at some point your vision is going to get obscured. The same can not be said with other Porsches.
Yes, it's a low percentage chance that my vision is going to be obscured just at the point that I really need to see something. And, given how rare flags are used to begin with, the two combined make it a really low percentage chance. I, for one, am still uncomfortable with it.
Finally, at our last event the Cayenne Turbo had worn down its brakes to practically nothing by the end of the event. This shouldn't be too surprising as that's a lot of weight to stop. However, I'd hate to be the car in front when they guy realizes that he no longer has any brakes.
08-13-2003, 12:47 AM
#94
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Brian... obviously you've not experienced a cayenne. you wouldnt be passing a cayenne turbo in your car... and if the driver is skilled, i doubt youd be passing a Chili S either.
i'm only gonna say this ONCE - the question was about cayennes at autocross, not DE.
that said, if your brakes aren't worn down at the end of the day, neither will the cayennes be... those things are MONSTROUS!!!
go experience one and then whine about why youd dont think it belongs on a track. i just wish it had a stick shift, but its a bunch of fun to drive regardless.
-Michael-
Cayenne beleiver.
i'm only gonna say this ONCE - the question was about cayennes at autocross, not DE.
that said, if your brakes aren't worn down at the end of the day, neither will the cayennes be... those things are MONSTROUS!!!
go experience one and then whine about why youd dont think it belongs on a track. i just wish it had a stick shift, but its a bunch of fun to drive regardless.
-Michael-
Cayenne beleiver.
08-13-2003, 10:02 AM
#95
Race Director
To Brian's defense:
I was at the same DE Brian was speaking of, and in the same run group.
The Chilli-turbo-S was a two driver car, and one of the drivers is a Boxster owner/driver. The problem with the brakes was simple: they were not paying attention! The brake warning light came on 1/2 way through the second day, and they choose to ignore it: that's why the rear passenger side pad was worn down to the backing plate. (Side note: at the morning techs, we check for brake pad wear, esp. on the second day of a multi-day event!)
Brian is a good driver, obviously a better driver than the one in the P-wagon: that's why he can hustle his 986 around the P-SUV. P-wagon driver and I are very close in our ability: in the past, when he drove his Boxster, we would basically run the same pace around the track. With the Chilli-turbo-S, I would not keep up. While it is difficult to see around the SUV, but not impossible. Passing a Cayenne requires extra care and a little change in driving style, IMHO.
While autox is a different venue, and there are other issues regarding running SUV's, I still think the P-wagon can be both fun and safe in both autox and DE's.
Just my $0.42,
-Z-man.
I was at the same DE Brian was speaking of, and in the same run group.
The Chilli-turbo-S was a two driver car, and one of the drivers is a Boxster owner/driver. The problem with the brakes was simple: they were not paying attention! The brake warning light came on 1/2 way through the second day, and they choose to ignore it: that's why the rear passenger side pad was worn down to the backing plate. (Side note: at the morning techs, we check for brake pad wear, esp. on the second day of a multi-day event!)
Brian is a good driver, obviously a better driver than the one in the P-wagon: that's why he can hustle his 986 around the P-SUV. P-wagon driver and I are very close in our ability: in the past, when he drove his Boxster, we would basically run the same pace around the track. With the Chilli-turbo-S, I would not keep up. While it is difficult to see around the SUV, but not impossible. Passing a Cayenne requires extra care and a little change in driving style, IMHO.
While autox is a different venue, and there are other issues regarding running SUV's, I still think the P-wagon can be both fun and safe in both autox and DE's.
Just my $0.42,
-Z-man.
08-13-2003, 10:36 AM
#96
Originally posted by ERAU-944
[i'm only gonna say this ONCE - the question was about cayennes at autocross, not DE.
[i'm only gonna say this ONCE - the question was about cayennes at autocross, not DE.
go experience one and then whine about why youd dont think it belongs on a track. i just wish it had a stick shift, but its a bunch of fun to drive regardless.
08-14-2003, 12:43 PM
#97
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Brian: thats great, i have no doubt that the SUV shouldnt be in a DE on the track at the same time as cars, i never said it should. i'll say it again: THIS THREAD is about AUTOCROSS and the cayenne should no doubt be able to autocross.
and i'll agree with you on this: if the cayenne is going to DE, it needs to have its own class, and its owners need to be better in tune with their cars/trucks.
like Z-man said, it can be safe for both autox and DE, it just needs its own class in DE and for its drivers to not be total vegetables.
-Michael- read your posts, my posts, and the thread title
and i'll agree with you on this: if the cayenne is going to DE, it needs to have its own class, and its owners need to be better in tune with their cars/trucks.
like Z-man said, it can be safe for both autox and DE, it just needs its own class in DE and for its drivers to not be total vegetables.
-Michael- read your posts, my posts, and the thread title
08-14-2003, 03:36 PM
#98
Burning Brakes
I'm on the autocross committee of the local PCA, and this issue hasn't come up yet. I suspect at some point it will though.
When it does arise, I would have to vote no. The consequences of a car flipping over aren't worth the 1 or 2 Cayennes we might see at an event. A flip would halt the event, someone might get seriously injured, we could possibly get kicked off of our usual site, and there's always the liability issue. I can see the Cayenne owner pointing the finger at us saying that we shouldn't have let them on course if flipping was a possibility.
A few things to consider:
1. A Cayenne running race tires will be more likely to flip. Granted, anyone hard core enough to use race tires wouldn't put them on a Cayenne, but you never know.
2. A lot of autocross venues have off camber sections, which makes it more likely to flip. The local lot we use has a lot of off camber parts. I've been able to get two wheels off the ground in my modified 911 coming over one of the peaks. Even the site used by the SCCA for Nationals has off camber sections.
I say if you want a car to drive hard, whether it's DE or autocross, then buy a sports car. OTOH, I can understand a Cayenne owner's desire to see what the car can do. In the end, I would still vote no on the autocross issue.
When it does arise, I would have to vote no. The consequences of a car flipping over aren't worth the 1 or 2 Cayennes we might see at an event. A flip would halt the event, someone might get seriously injured, we could possibly get kicked off of our usual site, and there's always the liability issue. I can see the Cayenne owner pointing the finger at us saying that we shouldn't have let them on course if flipping was a possibility.
A few things to consider:
1. A Cayenne running race tires will be more likely to flip. Granted, anyone hard core enough to use race tires wouldn't put them on a Cayenne, but you never know.
2. A lot of autocross venues have off camber sections, which makes it more likely to flip. The local lot we use has a lot of off camber parts. I've been able to get two wheels off the ground in my modified 911 coming over one of the peaks. Even the site used by the SCCA for Nationals has off camber sections.
I say if you want a car to drive hard, whether it's DE or autocross, then buy a sports car. OTOH, I can understand a Cayenne owner's desire to see what the car can do. In the end, I would still vote no on the autocross issue.
08-14-2003, 04:37 PM
#99
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sounds like y'all should find new places to autocross at. this is why i stopped autocrossing. cayennes should have no problems, i could hardly see them flipping over unless a moronic owner left it in off road mode. Porsche made the Cayenne to perform well on the road as well as off. if owners want to learn how to handle their Cayennes to the limit, i'd rather they do so at autocrosses then on the road. if you deny them that the become just like any other ignorant SUV or Minivan owner that doesnt know jack crap about the physics of a moving vehicle and won't know what to do in the event of an impending accident or incident. there are trucks at the autocrosses i attended, nobody seemed to pissed that they were there, and they weren't in danger of rolling over. the cayenne of any truck would come nowhere near this danger, and i'd bet it wouldnt even with race rubber. i'm not getting into the DE question, thats not what this thread is about. if you get two wheels of your 911 off the ground, i'd certainly start looking for somewhere else to run my car, thats unsafe. in that instance i'd have to vote NO for 911's to run autocrosses because yours seems to be in danger of flipping over, and dont get me started on that snap oversteer issue. consider EVERYTHING before making a decision, not just oh its an suv it must be a rollover waiting to happen.
-Michael- hated the cayenne from day one... trying to keep an open mind here
-Michael- hated the cayenne from day one... trying to keep an open mind here
08-15-2003, 01:15 PM
#100
Burning Brakes
Hey Michael,
Good points, and I hear what you're saying. The only trucks I've seen at the local autocrosses are the small ones that haven't been raised. The back end will usually slide out way before it could get enough grip to flip over.
I can also understand letting the Cayenne owners learn the limits of their vehicles. I'm all for that but I'm not sure whether autocross is the appropriate venue. One of my concerns is that it opens a can of worms: if you let the Cayenne in, then I think you also have to let in the BMW X5, the new Infiniti, Nissan Murano, etc. Our PCA autocrosses are not limited to Porsches, so only letting in the Cayenne may not be fair if all of these SUV's are comparable.
As far as my 911 lifting two wheels, I wasn't trying to show that OUR venue is dangerous. It may sound like it, but I can lift a front wheel on flat pavement, as can many other autocross prepped cars. My car is modded with a very stiff suspension, so it doesn't take as much suspension travel to lift a wheel. I was merely pointing out that some autocross sites have off camber sections, like ours, that would make an SUV slightly more prone to flip. Our venue is one of the sites used for the SCCA National Tour, which wouldn't be the case if the site had any issues.
If other regions start allowing Cayennes in and don't have any incidents, then I would certainly reconsider. I just don't want our region to be the first.
Good points, and I hear what you're saying. The only trucks I've seen at the local autocrosses are the small ones that haven't been raised. The back end will usually slide out way before it could get enough grip to flip over.
I can also understand letting the Cayenne owners learn the limits of their vehicles. I'm all for that but I'm not sure whether autocross is the appropriate venue. One of my concerns is that it opens a can of worms: if you let the Cayenne in, then I think you also have to let in the BMW X5, the new Infiniti, Nissan Murano, etc. Our PCA autocrosses are not limited to Porsches, so only letting in the Cayenne may not be fair if all of these SUV's are comparable.
As far as my 911 lifting two wheels, I wasn't trying to show that OUR venue is dangerous. It may sound like it, but I can lift a front wheel on flat pavement, as can many other autocross prepped cars. My car is modded with a very stiff suspension, so it doesn't take as much suspension travel to lift a wheel. I was merely pointing out that some autocross sites have off camber sections, like ours, that would make an SUV slightly more prone to flip. Our venue is one of the sites used for the SCCA National Tour, which wouldn't be the case if the site had any issues.
If other regions start allowing Cayennes in and don't have any incidents, then I would certainly reconsider. I just don't want our region to be the first.
08-15-2003, 04:04 PM
#101
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I guess you could say the Porsche Driving Experience is the first place to use the Cayennes on an autocross course.
If its safe for them then, is it because they take the proper precautions? Yet, these precautions are no different for the Boxsters.
The broader issue evolving here is "Are autocrosses properly organized and supervised?" If they are, there will be no problem with the Cayenne.
Committee members of PCA events ought to have more product knowlegde and experience before they "ban" a Porsche vehicle, and why should PCA events be limited by other models limitations? There are contradictions here, and at what point is it not a Porsche event?
If its safe for them then, is it because they take the proper precautions? Yet, these precautions are no different for the Boxsters.
The broader issue evolving here is "Are autocrosses properly organized and supervised?" If they are, there will be no problem with the Cayenne.
Committee members of PCA events ought to have more product knowlegde and experience before they "ban" a Porsche vehicle, and why should PCA events be limited by other models limitations? There are contradictions here, and at what point is it not a Porsche event?
08-16-2003, 01:08 AM
#102
Nordschleife Master
Originally posted by Drew_K
If other regions start allowing Cayennes in and don't have any incidents, then I would certainly reconsider. I just don't want our region to be the first.
If other regions start allowing Cayennes in and don't have any incidents, then I would certainly reconsider. I just don't want our region to be the first.
10-28-2010, 06:47 PM
#103
Okay, I know this is a REALLY old thread. I read it a long time ago.
I got the chance to autocross my Cayenne and took some video that I thought some of you might be interested in seeing. It's only about 1:20 long.
Results here.
http://rmr.pca.org/staticpages/2010e...%20Results.pdf
I got the chance to autocross my Cayenne and took some video that I thought some of you might be interested in seeing. It's only about 1:20 long.
Results here.
http://rmr.pca.org/staticpages/2010e...%20Results.pdf
11-01-2010, 05:43 PM
#104
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When in doubt ask the authorities. I contacted PCA national about this same issue back in June for a potential autocross entry. I corresponded with the Safety Committee Chair, Arlene Novack and she said that there has not been any problem with Cayennes and the answer is a definite YES.
Of course SCCA has a different opinion so you should caution your Cayenne autocrossers that they should not be surprised if they cannot run at an SCCA event. Different rules/different safety concerns.
Of course SCCA has a different opinion so you should caution your Cayenne autocrossers that they should not be surprised if they cannot run at an SCCA event. Different rules/different safety concerns.
11-01-2010, 06:18 PM
#105
Drifting
We've had an issues with offroad tires, though not on Cayennes. Locally, we require highway tires; offroad SUV tires have excessive flex during cornering and can come off the rim.