Trader220

This car has the longest list of options I have ever seen on a turbo including pccb brakes. Let me know if you're interested.

OldGuy

I would be interested in the price. I am guessing asking price is around 100K Should sell in 90 or less.

Trader220

Its priced in the mid to low 90's ... not sure why you believe it should be below 90 are you in the business? This car stickered for nearly 160k and its got 4500 miles on it.

docjackson1

160? wow, mid 90's sounds like a great price for a low mileage car, assuming that it is in good shape. with this economy, there are just some screaming deals out there-and with the deflation also present, people don't want to jump on these great deals, as they always think that there is a better deal in a few weeks. as long as this deflationary way of thinking persists, the economy will not recover.

OldGuy

Trader I am not in the business, but I am going to buy and I am paying very close attention to the market.
I know whats going on, on both coasts, autotrader and the Manhiem auctions.
Look at my other post. There are 30 2007's for sale on autotrader for less than 95k. THIRTY.
There is 700 09's, 08's and 07s, for sale making a buyers market thats saturated. The 30 07's average out at 88K with 12K miles. Options at this point become moot (except for maybe PCCBs)
unless for when it comes down to 2 cars that the buyer wants and then personal choice but they dont
drive up the price. I found that out the HARD way on both my 996 GT3 and my 997 GT3. My 996 was a totally optioned out 04 and come selling time those options meant diddly. Then I put new wheels and some options that I got absolutely nothing when selling.
I am finding out you dont have to be in the business to know whats going on. In fact it appears that the east coast and the west coast are unaware what prices are elsewhere. Its not rocket science (thats what i do) and with the correct data set, and an understanding of what the economy seems to be doing, its pretty easy to see what prices should be. 100k or LESS for a 08 depending on miles and around 85 for an 07 with 5-10k miles on it. I just looked at auto trader and with a sample size of 30 average asking price was 88K and 12K miles. Thats ASKING price, so you should be able to negotiate that down below 85K for say a 7500 mile car.
This is all my personal opinion with a little research. We all know buyers want prices LOWER and sellers want prices higher so take what I say with a grain of salt.
Youre from Philly so you should be able to get a better price than me in SoCal if we both shop on our own coasts.

Trader220

Knowing the market in anything is part of the responsibility of anyone in the market place. I spent 20 years as a professional options trader owned seats on three different exchanges (CME, AMEX and PHLX) and I ran a hedge fund. It was my job, to not only know the markets in the products I was providing liquidity in, but the markets in those products which have a correlation to my products.

It appears as if you believe that our price is too high? I respect your opinion but that’s not really going to change the price. Each used car is different and there is no geographical arbitrage either. The market place is open for all to see. For the most part you can see prices from the auctions and from all the websites. When you buy a CPO car from a franchised dealer it’s not the same as paying someone 500 or a grand to go to the auction and pick up a car for you. Despite what a lot of people on these boards feel, and I respect their opinion, there is value in buying from a dealer. I also don’t believe this board represents the true picture of the buying public. I would say that most people here are more passionate and that passion makes them by nature sharper buyers. Don’t turn around that last statement and say that dealers wait for suckers, that’s not the case. The client who buys from a dealer chooses to place a different value on that opportunity.

If you feel certain options are moot when you go to sell your car that’s fine, that’s not the case with all buyers, particularly in a Porsche. For many people the car is a special purchase and they want the car with the exact configuration they have always desired. Options may be moot to your situation but you should not blanket all buyers with that statement. There are plenty of people who absolutely will not buy a car no matter how good the deal my look to you if the car is missing one key option they desire.

There is probably more liquidity in Southern Cal than there is in Philly so one could make the argument that prices should be lower there. I used to live in Santa Monica and I know it’s the home of the 911. Also if you buy a car on the east coast it’s going to be at least a grand to get it to the west coast, it’s not a pure arb. When I traded currency pairs it didn’t matter where I did business they’re fungible across all markets, and there is NO barrier to any boarder or geographic area.

On your comment about what you “should be able to do”… How much room do you think there is in a pre owned car priced at 90k? If you come across a seller who has a car you want but he’s higher than your perception of the market is that really going to change his mind. You may tell him I can buy a car similar for 5k less and most times he will say go ahead but if you want mine this is the price. You may negotiate a bit. I used to trade DELL options when they were singularly listed in Philly. If you wanted to buy the 1 month 30 delta put we made the price, you could say the Gateway 30 delta put is very similar and its trading 10 vols lower, or the computer box maker index 30 delta put is trading 11 vols lower, that’s great but this is the price for the DELL put.

The Yellow car stickered for something like 155 to 160k and the price is what it is, there is some room in it but if you don’t need to have this particular car with all the stuff it has then absolutely go ahead and find one that stickered for 137k and buy it for 5 or 6 grant less than this one.

I totally agree it’s a buyer’s market, I don’t set the prices on our cars, heck I don’t even make a commission, we work on salary here. I do know that the people who own this place and make the prices have been in the business for a long time and they are pretty savvy at knowing their markets. It’s rare that we have a pre owned car in inventory for more than 45 days.

I appreciate all your comments and take mine with that same grain of salt.

Trader220

docjackson makes a great point in line with what I was saying in this thread

https://rennlist.com/forums/997-turb...ml#post6332344

He went ahead and paid more for a black turbo then the price he was offered on a racing green one. He placed the value on the option of color that someone else might not.

mooty

i think old guy and trader are both right.
i have burned through.... oh jeeeze, maybe 20+ p cars since 2002 so i know both buy and sell side.

while there's very little geography arbitrage, cars b/n coasts for some reason are 5-10k lower in prices.

while manheim is a guage to get the basics, it really doesn't mean a whole lot. it's like looking at SP500 or DowJones. yeah, it dropped, but so.... (well, i am talking about more normal mkt, not 2008-09).

any mods or options (perhaps excluding pccb) is worth next to nothing when it comes to trade. if you noticed that all my porsche are zero option cars short of xenon. some doesn't even have xenon. aftermarket mods are even worse. you get 1/2 back and you are lucky. and some ppl simple will not buy cars that are modded. me, for example. rather than buying a car with moton for 1/2 the price of the motons, i would buy a car stock, pay full price and install to get my own motons. but i am not typical. ppl like me will skew the market sample and i bet trader220 behaves a bit like me.

also, laziness affect pricing. i will not drive more than 200 miles to see a car. and i will not buy a car without a serious test drive, unless i personally know the owner well. so a TT on the east coast for 80k vs a TT here in SF ro 95k, all else being equal, i will take the 95k SF car. if you are not a lazy a** like myself, then you will have some savings. but you will also have some headaches. what if the car turns out not as good as you thought? if you are local, you can rest assured that if the car isn't perfect, i will egg your house on a daily basis until you refund my money or fix the car the way i want it to be fixed. those are "value" to me, but not to every buyer.

good luck to OG in finding his next TT and good luck to trader selling it. the market is kind of weird at the moment.

Trader220

If the spread was 15k acorss the country then there is an arb to be done, that assumes the markets are liquid. Your time, call it 24 hours and costs call it 700 bucks for a round trip ticket, 150 bucks for a hotel, 75 bucks for a car rental and another 100 for food, plus the transportation costs to move the new car are no where near 15k. I dont believe the price desparity across the country on cars which are very close is 15k on a 85 to 100k car.

Mooty, like you I have bought a ton of 911's over the years before I got into this business. I did well in that I could drive the car I wanted for a period of time and my costs were in line with a Honda or something of that sorts. I also was very sharp on what I bought and paid and my niche was buying the more rare model, RSA, Speedster etc etc. Yea the market was smaller but the volatility in prices was smaller too. I am really an air cooled junky too

docjackson1

I agree with trader's reasoning-i absolutlely think that an 07 turbo that had an msrp of 155-160k with only 4500 miles is definitely worth mid 90s, especially from a dealer that you can take it back to and bitch and moan to after the sale. It has been said many times, as has been noted by the previous poster, that you cannot compare a manheim auction car to a dealer sold car. The manheim car is in many times the lowest common denominator of a porsche buying experience. I paid a bit of a premium to get my color new at a dealer, but to me it was worth it. There were all kind of used low mileage 07s around at the time for 110-i just felt better with a new one. I think the problem with the market now is that everyone is told every minute that it is a buyer's market. I have been reading old guy's posts and he seems like a fine man, but he, like everyone else, is reacting in the way that groucho marx used to react, when he said that "I will not join any club that will take me as a member". It seems that any deal that people see, no matter how good the deal is, must be followed by an even better deal. Therefore, no deal is good enough.

Trader220

Doc,
What you just described is called deflation and it’s the economies biggest enemy. No one is going to buy anything if they think its going to be cheaper in a month. The FED can print as much cheap money as they can, which will eventually be inflationary, but if consumers are afraid to buy widgets because they think they will be cheaper tomorrow the cost of money is not going to matter.

Manheim in theory is not really a public auction and most buyers don’t have the ability to go there and pay what’s supposed to be wholesale for a pre owned highline car. You also run the risk of buying a stinker with no real recourse there, which most people will pay a bit of a premium to avoid. Manheim is also not what it used to be. I have gone with friends in the business many times over the last 15 years or so. I used to enjoy just watching, especially since I used to be a floor trader and I was amused at the different arena. These days there are a lot more people with cell phones in their ear and client lists in their hands that shop not for inventory but are willing to pay up just for the fee they charge anyone off the street.

It is a buyers market, but that cuts both ways. The biggest objection I come across is people love hearing the deals they can get but they don’t like hearing what their current ride is worth in trade. The guy who wants to trade up to a turbo and has a 2007 Carrera 4S is a bit taken back when his $110k car with 7k miles on it is worth a whole lot less then he figured.

OldGuy

Trader, when I said should be able to do that was before I had some sales info, and it was a off the cuff.
now that I know what I know 90 to 95 for that in this market is reasonable. With that option list.
And since I just found out you are in the business "our car" then that just means you and I are discussing the same point from the viewpoint as a Seller and a Buyer. I have already have said that I as a buyer am going to want the car to be lower and you as a Seller are going to want the price to be higher.
so given that we are probably talking close to the same numbers.
BTW I believe there is a lot of reasons to go to the dealer.

RSRRacer

It is if you make north of $3M a year

mooty

know what u mean.
the 15k delta was just a random number i picked, certainly didn't mean to suggest the east west coast and the dirt in b/n have such disparity in pricing. i am just saying i am lazy and would only look in local mkts.

however, if dealta is indeed 15k then resellers certainly has some money to make. not much... but it's there. and for more diligent buyers, they will save some money...

Trader220

If you make north of 3mm per year then there is a case to be made either way and one to be made for just walking into the dealer and taking out the offer no fuss.