MP4-12C Depreciation
02-08-2013, 05:35 PM
#62
12C for $140k is like a 4.0 at $125K. Good Luck with that - Its going to be long wait.
For eg. An Internet buddy of mine just bought a 12C with MSRP for $288K for $223K. He waited 6 months hoping to get lower prices without much luck. The cars that were less expensive had issues or else had odd interior/exterior options.
For eg. An Internet buddy of mine just bought a 12C with MSRP for $288K for $223K. He waited 6 months hoping to get lower prices without much luck. The cars that were less expensive had issues or else had odd interior/exterior options.
02-08-2013, 06:22 PM
#63
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I rarely, if ever, see another 997 GT2, yet the GT2 relative values are well below the NA cars which are a dime a dozen at the track and coffee events. That shows us that the market is not logical- mostly based on perceived value and little to do with exclusivity/rarity. If the GT3/RS values don't go down, that's fine, $80K is where the buck stops for me on the 997.2 GT3 RS, and $140K for the 12C.
There were approximately 220 997 GT2, 200 997 GT2RS, and about 550 997.2 GT3RS. No idea on the 4.0 GT3 RS or the 997.1 NA cars.
458 is a $300K proposition- base plus options plus tax. Price is closer to the GT2RS than the 4.0 in my opinion. 458 and 12C occupy the same mindspace/pricepoint, the 997 based high end Porsches are one step lower and more akin to a used 430 Scud pricepoint. Performance wise, it's a wash, the buyer will like what he/she likes, with little regard to the rest.
There were approximately 220 997 GT2, 200 997 GT2RS, and about 550 997.2 GT3RS. No idea on the 4.0 GT3 RS or the 997.1 NA cars.
458 is a $300K proposition- base plus options plus tax. Price is closer to the GT2RS than the 4.0 in my opinion. 458 and 12C occupy the same mindspace/pricepoint, the 997 based high end Porsches are one step lower and more akin to a used 430 Scud pricepoint. Performance wise, it's a wash, the buyer will like what he/she likes, with little regard to the rest.
thanks for the numbers..550 for the 2RS..its more than I expected...but OK. Yes, GT2 is more rare..but price is lower..agree.
But I think ritesh is correct..prices for mp4-12 will not be at 140any time soon..maybe in 5 years..but even then. 50K off a new one, or one with little kms, miles..ok..that you might find..but thats about it..prices dont half for these things in 1-2 years.
However, I agree that Mp4-12 and 458 are by my feeling at least 50K too expensive..if it continues like this people will refuse to buy new ones because they will say "why buy a new one if after 6 month its 50k off..I will just choose from the plenty of seconds hand ones".
Regarding 997.2GT3RS values..991 GT3 will not change much..when in two years there will be a new GT3RS..then we will see..but from I heard you wont get it below 170-180k..so even a 100K 997.2GT3RS by then is a "bargain"..and probably a future classic like a 993 turbo.
We will see..but one thing is sure..the more Porsche changes the "GT3 concept"..the better 997 GT variants will hold their value..
PS: thats why I will just wait and see what happens..guys who sold in 2000 their 993 turbo for a 996 turbo ...also screwed up..and I dont wanto to make these mistakes also..besides, I like almost everything on my GT3 and GT2..
02-08-2013, 06:25 PM
#64
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12C for $140k is like a 4.0 at $125K. Good Luck with that - Its going to be long wait.
For eg. An Internet buddy of mine just bought a 12C with MSRP for $288K for $223K. He waited 6 months hoping to get lower prices without much luck. The cars that were less expensive had issues or else had odd interior/exterior options.
For eg. An Internet buddy of mine just bought a 12C with MSRP for $288K for $223K. He waited 6 months hoping to get lower prices without much luck. The cars that were less expensive had issues or else had odd interior/exterior options.
beautiful 3.6 you have there..I was looking for one like this, in this colour for month..couldnt find one..and then just bought a basalt black one..which is gone now..I miss it already.
02-08-2013, 07:08 PM
#65
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12C for $140k is like a 4.0 at $125K. Good Luck with that - Its going to be long wait.
For eg. An Internet buddy of mine just bought a 12C with MSRP for $288K for $223K. He waited 6 months hoping to get lower prices without much luck. The cars that were less expensive had issues or else had odd interior/exterior options.
For eg. An Internet buddy of mine just bought a 12C with MSRP for $288K for $223K. He waited 6 months hoping to get lower prices without much luck. The cars that were less expensive had issues or else had odd interior/exterior options.
Won't take 3 years for the car to hit 140, particularly when the convertible one gets widely distributed. I drove the 458 before it was released and LOVED it, did the same with the macca and didn't like it but right now the convertible is really growing on me. I like the look more and more and dislike the "see me coming" look of the F cars more and more - I used to love it when people were looking at me at traffic lights but I ain't in my 30s anymore and the Ron Dennis look appeals to me more and more... Bet you the macca was just a few years early for people to get hooked but in 3 to 5 years they will be more popular
02-08-2013, 08:12 PM
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NJ-GT is correct.
However i am offically a p-car addict and will be in the new 991RS and then the 960 and maybe even a 991 Cup if i can develop skills in between my other hobbies
However i am offically a p-car addict and will be in the new 991RS and then the 960 and maybe even a 991 Cup if i can develop skills in between my other hobbies
02-08-2013, 09:34 PM
#67
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man it sure is hilarious reading all of the opinions on 458, 430Scud, 4.0RS, etc etc
I have driven on track, coached or owned 996GT3 cup car, 993TT, 430, audi R8, gt3, GT3RS, GT3RS 3.8, CGT, 599, Bentley ContiGT super sports, MP4, F3000, F-atlantic, Grand-am cars, scca cars, etc etc
It is very easy to feel like an expert on subjects on the internet- but the fact of the matter is that every car is a different car with different strengths and weaknesses.
If you are waiting for a car to drop, hoping for a car to drop, etc then don't complain about the cost of the car, I mean, it's not like you own one yet anyway. When you own the car, "it's all the way depreciated, it's RARE, etc" sounds just as stupid to me.
The F40 is a collector car. a 997GT3 is not a collector car. neither is a Gt2. neither is an R8, MP4, or a Gallardo, or even a 430 Scud for that matter. and if you are collecting you better not be putting mileage on your cars.
the gt3RS 4.0 MIGHT be. maybe. unless the new 991GT3RS blows it away then it will just be like the 3.8RS with extra aero bits and some more HP. so no need to argue about that either. zero mile 4.0RS in 2030 will be worth money!! woohoo. but a beat to hell 3.8 or 4.0 with 20k-45k miles or more in 2030 will be worth what a 60k mile 993TT is worth.
every street car (except veyron, K-egg, P1, 918, etc) is just a street car, an appliance, a fun way of getting around and playing around at the track from time to time.
okay that rant is over. next: Ferrari dealers by and large are complete jerks. I refuse to ever buy a new ferrari, or pay over sticker etc. Some people are happy to go pay 300k for a 458 (plus options) but that is no different than the 430Scud when it came out, or the 360 Challenge Stradale- my point is that some guys keep drinking the Ferrari Kool-Aid and are fooled by the cheater "test special" that some mags turn a blind eye to. The MP4 is lighter, more efficient, more unique, and newer technology (although the spygate scandal was largely around the development of the 458 and MP4 from what I recall). Carbon tub is the safest thing you can sit in.
porsche makes great great cars. durable cars- kind of. nobody knows what the new PDK is going to last like, the coolant hose issues are due to Value Engineering (just wait with VW...more to come) and the centerlock fiasco is wacky at best. That being said- FOR THE MONEY (~100-120k) the Gt3RS is the best car. let's not look totally through rose colored glasses though- RMS leaks, clutch failures, lemon law, I've been reading this board for years and it has been a fickle little bitch compared to the 993 which only has ever had one issue (in 15 years of ownership)- carbon build up on valves.
but- for my money and with the 3 GT3/RS cars that I've owned- I never was excited to drive them on the street, never impressed with the interior. I loved driving my RS's on the track (infineon, Laguna, willow, buttonwillow, fontana, TWS, MSR) but once I started racing I saw DE days as a waste of time and money. Racing (especially endurance racing or formula cars) is way more fun, dynamic, challenging, etc etc.
so my judgement is clouded severely. I think you guys are nuts for not just paying the same amount and doing the Patron/Yokohama GT3 Cup series (come race for my team in 2014) getting real coaching, new tracks, hell maybe getting on TV.
My CGT has done some track days- but lets be honest with a $27,000 clutch and $15,000 body panels (each) go ahead and track yours. let me know how that responds to hoosier R6s. I'll just take mine on nice long highway drives or canyon runs instead. I drive it once or twice a month- I've put 7k miles on mine in 3+ years of ownership.
My MP4 might see some track time- I would love to. It is explosive. Dynamic. but more than anything, it's refined. If I want suicidal I drive my Triumph 675R. but it's my daily driver- commuter. I got it late May '12 and it has about 6K miles on it. I beat the pants of that thing and I've never seen the limit or close to it- it's the best handling car I've ever driven. It's the modern vision of a CGT- same HP, similar torque- but stronger, smaller, more efficient, more adjustable, WAY more practical (like a 997TT PDK practical).
It is like owning a CGT and a Bentley GT at the same time, depending on what mode you are in. Old school is dead at the track- new cars are like spaceships- TCS, DCT, PASM, etc etc will be on every car from now on. Whoever made the comment about the Carbon Tub being a bad thing- Tell the F1 drivers they don't need carbon tubs. The reason why people survive when they crash Enzos at 160mph into a telephone pole is because they have a carbon tub!
for the record I respect that all you guys track your cars, push them to your limits, etc. But don't mistake your car for a race car- it is not. Neither is my CGT, or my MP4, neither was my 599.
and for the record, the two M-dealers (park place dallas and Beverly Hills) have been awesome. I've dealt with 5 or 6 Porsche dealers, 3 F-car dealers, and 3 audi dealers. I'm also a dealer myself and have to say that the majority of dealers are crappy. Newport Beach Ferrari has been nice, and I had a good experience with a Gt3 at the Collection in Miami, but other than that it's been mixed at best with the rest.
McLaren wants to sell cars, wants to service cars, wants to maintain cars and keep customers happy. I'm very happy with them. I drink their Kool-Aid, and am ordering a P1.
I also love porsches and am excited about the 961Prototype, the new boxster S, and eventually the 991GT3RS.
if you only have 120k and want to do DE- go get an RS.
if you have 160k- get the 430Scud
If you have more than that- go get a racing license.
I have driven on track, coached or owned 996GT3 cup car, 993TT, 430, audi R8, gt3, GT3RS, GT3RS 3.8, CGT, 599, Bentley ContiGT super sports, MP4, F3000, F-atlantic, Grand-am cars, scca cars, etc etc
It is very easy to feel like an expert on subjects on the internet- but the fact of the matter is that every car is a different car with different strengths and weaknesses.
If you are waiting for a car to drop, hoping for a car to drop, etc then don't complain about the cost of the car, I mean, it's not like you own one yet anyway. When you own the car, "it's all the way depreciated, it's RARE, etc" sounds just as stupid to me.
The F40 is a collector car. a 997GT3 is not a collector car. neither is a Gt2. neither is an R8, MP4, or a Gallardo, or even a 430 Scud for that matter. and if you are collecting you better not be putting mileage on your cars.
the gt3RS 4.0 MIGHT be. maybe. unless the new 991GT3RS blows it away then it will just be like the 3.8RS with extra aero bits and some more HP. so no need to argue about that either. zero mile 4.0RS in 2030 will be worth money!! woohoo. but a beat to hell 3.8 or 4.0 with 20k-45k miles or more in 2030 will be worth what a 60k mile 993TT is worth.
every street car (except veyron, K-egg, P1, 918, etc) is just a street car, an appliance, a fun way of getting around and playing around at the track from time to time.
okay that rant is over. next: Ferrari dealers by and large are complete jerks. I refuse to ever buy a new ferrari, or pay over sticker etc. Some people are happy to go pay 300k for a 458 (plus options) but that is no different than the 430Scud when it came out, or the 360 Challenge Stradale- my point is that some guys keep drinking the Ferrari Kool-Aid and are fooled by the cheater "test special" that some mags turn a blind eye to. The MP4 is lighter, more efficient, more unique, and newer technology (although the spygate scandal was largely around the development of the 458 and MP4 from what I recall). Carbon tub is the safest thing you can sit in.
porsche makes great great cars. durable cars- kind of. nobody knows what the new PDK is going to last like, the coolant hose issues are due to Value Engineering (just wait with VW...more to come) and the centerlock fiasco is wacky at best. That being said- FOR THE MONEY (~100-120k) the Gt3RS is the best car. let's not look totally through rose colored glasses though- RMS leaks, clutch failures, lemon law, I've been reading this board for years and it has been a fickle little bitch compared to the 993 which only has ever had one issue (in 15 years of ownership)- carbon build up on valves.
but- for my money and with the 3 GT3/RS cars that I've owned- I never was excited to drive them on the street, never impressed with the interior. I loved driving my RS's on the track (infineon, Laguna, willow, buttonwillow, fontana, TWS, MSR) but once I started racing I saw DE days as a waste of time and money. Racing (especially endurance racing or formula cars) is way more fun, dynamic, challenging, etc etc.
so my judgement is clouded severely. I think you guys are nuts for not just paying the same amount and doing the Patron/Yokohama GT3 Cup series (come race for my team in 2014) getting real coaching, new tracks, hell maybe getting on TV.
My CGT has done some track days- but lets be honest with a $27,000 clutch and $15,000 body panels (each) go ahead and track yours. let me know how that responds to hoosier R6s. I'll just take mine on nice long highway drives or canyon runs instead. I drive it once or twice a month- I've put 7k miles on mine in 3+ years of ownership.
My MP4 might see some track time- I would love to. It is explosive. Dynamic. but more than anything, it's refined. If I want suicidal I drive my Triumph 675R. but it's my daily driver- commuter. I got it late May '12 and it has about 6K miles on it. I beat the pants of that thing and I've never seen the limit or close to it- it's the best handling car I've ever driven. It's the modern vision of a CGT- same HP, similar torque- but stronger, smaller, more efficient, more adjustable, WAY more practical (like a 997TT PDK practical).
It is like owning a CGT and a Bentley GT at the same time, depending on what mode you are in. Old school is dead at the track- new cars are like spaceships- TCS, DCT, PASM, etc etc will be on every car from now on. Whoever made the comment about the Carbon Tub being a bad thing- Tell the F1 drivers they don't need carbon tubs. The reason why people survive when they crash Enzos at 160mph into a telephone pole is because they have a carbon tub!
for the record I respect that all you guys track your cars, push them to your limits, etc. But don't mistake your car for a race car- it is not. Neither is my CGT, or my MP4, neither was my 599.
and for the record, the two M-dealers (park place dallas and Beverly Hills) have been awesome. I've dealt with 5 or 6 Porsche dealers, 3 F-car dealers, and 3 audi dealers. I'm also a dealer myself and have to say that the majority of dealers are crappy. Newport Beach Ferrari has been nice, and I had a good experience with a Gt3 at the Collection in Miami, but other than that it's been mixed at best with the rest.
McLaren wants to sell cars, wants to service cars, wants to maintain cars and keep customers happy. I'm very happy with them. I drink their Kool-Aid, and am ordering a P1.
I also love porsches and am excited about the 961Prototype, the new boxster S, and eventually the 991GT3RS.
if you only have 120k and want to do DE- go get an RS.
if you have 160k- get the 430Scud
If you have more than that- go get a racing license.
02-08-2013, 11:20 PM
#69
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It goes without saying that late model cars are not investments. That said, some people are more sensitive to depreciation than others.
It also goes without saying that pricing is strictly based on supply and demand. Sometimes superiority and demand are directly correlated, and sometimes they aren't. As somebody mentioned in this thread, in this country British cars have not lived down their reputation for poor reliability. Especially a completely new first-year model. And McLaren is only a household name in households that watch F1. So even if the 12C (as it is now called) is better than the 458 and Aventador in every way, it is still a tough value proposition for many.
It also goes without saying that pricing is strictly based on supply and demand. Sometimes superiority and demand are directly correlated, and sometimes they aren't. As somebody mentioned in this thread, in this country British cars have not lived down their reputation for poor reliability. Especially a completely new first-year model. And McLaren is only a household name in households that watch F1. So even if the 12C (as it is now called) is better than the 458 and Aventador in every way, it is still a tough value proposition for many.
02-09-2013, 12:44 AM
#70
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It goes without saying that late model cars are not investments. That said, some people are more sensitive to depreciation than others.
It also goes without saying that pricing is strictly based on supply and demand. Sometimes superiority and demand are directly correlated, and sometimes they aren't. As somebody mentioned in this thread, in this country British cars have not lived down their reputation for poor reliability. Especially a completely new first-year model. And McLaren is only a household name in households that watch F1. So even if the 12C (as it is now called) is better than the 458 and Aventador in every way, it is still a tough value proposition for many.
It also goes without saying that pricing is strictly based on supply and demand. Sometimes superiority and demand are directly correlated, and sometimes they aren't. As somebody mentioned in this thread, in this country British cars have not lived down their reputation for poor reliability. Especially a completely new first-year model. And McLaren is only a household name in households that watch F1. So even if the 12C (as it is now called) is better than the 458 and Aventador in every way, it is still a tough value proposition for many.
02-09-2013, 01:04 AM
#71
I'm actually one of those guys that hate to buy things that depreciate terribly. If a car starts to drop fast, I'll just sell it. It would break my heart if my new Mclaren dropped that fast. I guess the flip side is that I wouldn't buy one new either. Maybe I won't care when I make 8 figures.
Having said all that, I would love the mp4 and I'd also love to race with CJ. Maybe both.....
Having said all that, I would love the mp4 and I'd also love to race with CJ. Maybe both.....
02-09-2013, 01:37 AM
#72
How is the brake feel on the ceramics? The Brit magazines roundly bash the 12c's ceramics on the basis of feel
02-09-2013, 01:43 AM
#73
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It will come soon. My local dealer offered me a $2500 per month lease with $40,000 down and a residual of 180 I think - and I didn't ask!.
Won't take 3 years for the car to hit 140, particularly when the convertible one gets widely distributed. I drove the 458 before it was released and LOVED it, did the same with the macca and didn't like it but right now the convertible is really growing on me. I like the look more and more and dislike the "see me coming" look of the F cars more and more - I used to love it when people were looking at me at traffic lights but I ain't in my 30s anymore and the Ron Dennis look appeals to me more and more... Bet you the macca was just a few years early for people to get hooked but in 3 to 5 years they will be more popular
Won't take 3 years for the car to hit 140, particularly when the convertible one gets widely distributed. I drove the 458 before it was released and LOVED it, did the same with the macca and didn't like it but right now the convertible is really growing on me. I like the look more and more and dislike the "see me coming" look of the F cars more and more - I used to love it when people were looking at me at traffic lights but I ain't in my 30s anymore and the Ron Dennis look appeals to me more and more... Bet you the macca was just a few years early for people to get hooked but in 3 to 5 years they will be more popular
As for racing, real race craft can be learned in a kart. Don't need to spend an annual six figures pretending in some big budget race car team. Been there done that, no point to it. DE is different, if you're just on the track to learn, nothing wrong with that, just remember DE is not a 100% commitment, winnable event, and leave enough on the table for safety for everyone's sake.
02-09-2013, 02:32 AM
#74
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man it sure is hilarious reading all of the opinions on 458, 430Scud, 4.0RS, etc etc
I have driven on track, coached or owned 996GT3 cup car, 993TT, 430, audi R8, gt3, GT3RS, GT3RS 3.8, CGT, 599, Bentley ContiGT super sports, MP4, F3000, F-atlantic, Grand-am cars, scca cars, etc etc
It is very easy to feel like an expert on subjects on the internet- but the fact of the matter is that every car is a different car with different strengths and weaknesses.
If you are waiting for a car to drop, hoping for a car to drop, etc then don't complain about the cost of the car, I mean, it's not like you own one yet anyway. When you own the car, "it's all the way depreciated, it's RARE, etc" sounds just as stupid to me.
The F40 is a collector car. a 997GT3 is not a collector car. neither is a Gt2. neither is an R8, MP4, or a Gallardo, or even a 430 Scud for that matter. and if you are collecting you better not be putting mileage on your cars.
the gt3RS 4.0 MIGHT be. maybe. unless the new 991GT3RS blows it away then it will just be like the 3.8RS with extra aero bits and some more HP. so no need to argue about that either. zero mile 4.0RS in 2030 will be worth money!! woohoo. but a beat to hell 3.8 or 4.0 with 20k-45k miles or more in 2030 will be worth what a 60k mile 993TT is worth.
every street car (except veyron, K-egg, P1, 918, etc) is just a street car, an appliance, a fun way of getting around and playing around at the track from time to time.
okay that rant is over. next: Ferrari dealers by and large are complete jerks. I refuse to ever buy a new ferrari, or pay over sticker etc. Some people are happy to go pay 300k for a 458 (plus options) but that is no different than the 430Scud when it came out, or the 360 Challenge Stradale- my point is that some guys keep drinking the Ferrari Kool-Aid and are fooled by the cheater "test special" that some mags turn a blind eye to. The MP4 is lighter, more efficient, more unique, and newer technology (although the spygate scandal was largely around the development of the 458 and MP4 from what I recall). Carbon tub is the safest thing you can sit in.
porsche makes great great cars. durable cars- kind of. nobody knows what the new PDK is going to last like, the coolant hose issues are due to Value Engineering (just wait with VW...more to come) and the centerlock fiasco is wacky at best. That being said- FOR THE MONEY (~100-120k) the Gt3RS is the best car. let's not look totally through rose colored glasses though- RMS leaks, clutch failures, lemon law, I've been reading this board for years and it has been a fickle little bitch compared to the 993 which only has ever had one issue (in 15 years of ownership)- carbon build up on valves.
but- for my money and with the 3 GT3/RS cars that I've owned- I never was excited to drive them on the street, never impressed with the interior. I loved driving my RS's on the track (infineon, Laguna, willow, buttonwillow, fontana, TWS, MSR) but once I started racing I saw DE days as a waste of time and money. Racing (especially endurance racing or formula cars) is way more fun, dynamic, challenging, etc etc.
so my judgement is clouded severely. I think you guys are nuts for not just paying the same amount and doing the Patron/Yokohama GT3 Cup series (come race for my team in 2014) getting real coaching, new tracks, hell maybe getting on TV.
My CGT has done some track days- but lets be honest with a $27,000 clutch and $15,000 body panels (each) go ahead and track yours. let me know how that responds to hoosier R6s. I'll just take mine on nice long highway drives or canyon runs instead. I drive it once or twice a month- I've put 7k miles on mine in 3+ years of ownership.
My MP4 might see some track time- I would love to. It is explosive. Dynamic. but more than anything, it's refined. If I want suicidal I drive my Triumph 675R. but it's my daily driver- commuter. I got it late May '12 and it has about 6K miles on it. I beat the pants of that thing and I've never seen the limit or close to it- it's the best handling car I've ever driven. It's the modern vision of a CGT- same HP, similar torque- but stronger, smaller, more efficient, more adjustable, WAY more practical (like a 997TT PDK practical).
It is like owning a CGT and a Bentley GT at the same time, depending on what mode you are in. Old school is dead at the track- new cars are like spaceships- TCS, DCT, PASM, etc etc will be on every car from now on. Whoever made the comment about the Carbon Tub being a bad thing- Tell the F1 drivers they don't need carbon tubs. The reason why people survive when they crash Enzos at 160mph into a telephone pole is because they have a carbon tub!
for the record I respect that all you guys track your cars, push them to your limits, etc. But don't mistake your car for a race car- it is not. Neither is my CGT, or my MP4, neither was my 599.
and for the record, the two M-dealers (park place dallas and Beverly Hills) have been awesome. I've dealt with 5 or 6 Porsche dealers, 3 F-car dealers, and 3 audi dealers. I'm also a dealer myself and have to say that the majority of dealers are crappy. Newport Beach Ferrari has been nice, and I had a good experience with a Gt3 at the Collection in Miami, but other than that it's been mixed at best with the rest.
McLaren wants to sell cars, wants to service cars, wants to maintain cars and keep customers happy. I'm very happy with them. I drink their Kool-Aid, and am ordering a P1.
I also love porsches and am excited about the 961Prototype, the new boxster S, and eventually the 991GT3RS.
if you only have 120k and want to do DE- go get an RS.
if you have 160k- get the 430Scud
If you have more than that- go get a racing license.
I have driven on track, coached or owned 996GT3 cup car, 993TT, 430, audi R8, gt3, GT3RS, GT3RS 3.8, CGT, 599, Bentley ContiGT super sports, MP4, F3000, F-atlantic, Grand-am cars, scca cars, etc etc
It is very easy to feel like an expert on subjects on the internet- but the fact of the matter is that every car is a different car with different strengths and weaknesses.
If you are waiting for a car to drop, hoping for a car to drop, etc then don't complain about the cost of the car, I mean, it's not like you own one yet anyway. When you own the car, "it's all the way depreciated, it's RARE, etc" sounds just as stupid to me.
The F40 is a collector car. a 997GT3 is not a collector car. neither is a Gt2. neither is an R8, MP4, or a Gallardo, or even a 430 Scud for that matter. and if you are collecting you better not be putting mileage on your cars.
the gt3RS 4.0 MIGHT be. maybe. unless the new 991GT3RS blows it away then it will just be like the 3.8RS with extra aero bits and some more HP. so no need to argue about that either. zero mile 4.0RS in 2030 will be worth money!! woohoo. but a beat to hell 3.8 or 4.0 with 20k-45k miles or more in 2030 will be worth what a 60k mile 993TT is worth.
every street car (except veyron, K-egg, P1, 918, etc) is just a street car, an appliance, a fun way of getting around and playing around at the track from time to time.
okay that rant is over. next: Ferrari dealers by and large are complete jerks. I refuse to ever buy a new ferrari, or pay over sticker etc. Some people are happy to go pay 300k for a 458 (plus options) but that is no different than the 430Scud when it came out, or the 360 Challenge Stradale- my point is that some guys keep drinking the Ferrari Kool-Aid and are fooled by the cheater "test special" that some mags turn a blind eye to. The MP4 is lighter, more efficient, more unique, and newer technology (although the spygate scandal was largely around the development of the 458 and MP4 from what I recall). Carbon tub is the safest thing you can sit in.
porsche makes great great cars. durable cars- kind of. nobody knows what the new PDK is going to last like, the coolant hose issues are due to Value Engineering (just wait with VW...more to come) and the centerlock fiasco is wacky at best. That being said- FOR THE MONEY (~100-120k) the Gt3RS is the best car. let's not look totally through rose colored glasses though- RMS leaks, clutch failures, lemon law, I've been reading this board for years and it has been a fickle little bitch compared to the 993 which only has ever had one issue (in 15 years of ownership)- carbon build up on valves.
but- for my money and with the 3 GT3/RS cars that I've owned- I never was excited to drive them on the street, never impressed with the interior. I loved driving my RS's on the track (infineon, Laguna, willow, buttonwillow, fontana, TWS, MSR) but once I started racing I saw DE days as a waste of time and money. Racing (especially endurance racing or formula cars) is way more fun, dynamic, challenging, etc etc.
so my judgement is clouded severely. I think you guys are nuts for not just paying the same amount and doing the Patron/Yokohama GT3 Cup series (come race for my team in 2014) getting real coaching, new tracks, hell maybe getting on TV.
My CGT has done some track days- but lets be honest with a $27,000 clutch and $15,000 body panels (each) go ahead and track yours. let me know how that responds to hoosier R6s. I'll just take mine on nice long highway drives or canyon runs instead. I drive it once or twice a month- I've put 7k miles on mine in 3+ years of ownership.
My MP4 might see some track time- I would love to. It is explosive. Dynamic. but more than anything, it's refined. If I want suicidal I drive my Triumph 675R. but it's my daily driver- commuter. I got it late May '12 and it has about 6K miles on it. I beat the pants of that thing and I've never seen the limit or close to it- it's the best handling car I've ever driven. It's the modern vision of a CGT- same HP, similar torque- but stronger, smaller, more efficient, more adjustable, WAY more practical (like a 997TT PDK practical).
It is like owning a CGT and a Bentley GT at the same time, depending on what mode you are in. Old school is dead at the track- new cars are like spaceships- TCS, DCT, PASM, etc etc will be on every car from now on. Whoever made the comment about the Carbon Tub being a bad thing- Tell the F1 drivers they don't need carbon tubs. The reason why people survive when they crash Enzos at 160mph into a telephone pole is because they have a carbon tub!
for the record I respect that all you guys track your cars, push them to your limits, etc. But don't mistake your car for a race car- it is not. Neither is my CGT, or my MP4, neither was my 599.
and for the record, the two M-dealers (park place dallas and Beverly Hills) have been awesome. I've dealt with 5 or 6 Porsche dealers, 3 F-car dealers, and 3 audi dealers. I'm also a dealer myself and have to say that the majority of dealers are crappy. Newport Beach Ferrari has been nice, and I had a good experience with a Gt3 at the Collection in Miami, but other than that it's been mixed at best with the rest.
McLaren wants to sell cars, wants to service cars, wants to maintain cars and keep customers happy. I'm very happy with them. I drink their Kool-Aid, and am ordering a P1.
I also love porsches and am excited about the 961Prototype, the new boxster S, and eventually the 991GT3RS.
if you only have 120k and want to do DE- go get an RS.
if you have 160k- get the 430Scud
If you have more than that- go get a racing license.
02-09-2013, 03:09 AM
#75
if you can't stomach the initial drop or change cars often, then buy slightly used cars. i think there's a lot of value now on the MP4s that have lost 50-60K from their MSRP. and people are now starting to realize how great of a car it is from real owners and not just magazine tests.