Originally Posted by a.928

Well, 80..I dont think it will happen..nonetheless, you are fully correct with the CL..although I think the issue is far overrated here. Yes, the first cars had problems..but now after two recalls the issue is fixed.

What for the real problem of CL is..you cant change wheels alone anymore..but Ok..they look better though..

Originally Posted by a.928

What for the real problem of CL is..you cant change wheels alone anymore..but Ok..they look better though..

Originally Posted by ShakeNBake

There is a very easy trick to dealing with CLs alone. Costs $15 and works phenomenally well.

Originally Posted by azmurciev12

or you can just keep it for the long haul. i bought a brand new murcielago in 2003. and if i were looking to sell it in the first 3 years of ownership, i would have lost half of the money on the depreciation. fast forward almost 10 years later, i probably have lost still 50-60% of the value. not much decline anymore after that. and i still have the car.

if you can't stomach the initial drop or change cars often, then buy slightly used cars. i think there's a lot of value now on the MP4s that have lost 50-60K from their MSRP. and people are now starting to realize how great of a car it is from real owners and not just magazine tests.

Originally Posted by forhamilton

I just haven't found a car that I want more than the RS and values have actually risen slightly since I purchased. Maybe a scud, but I really enjoy a third pedal.

Originally Posted by scott40

What is it??

Originally Posted by 911rox

How do you figure its fixed a928? Nothing is fixed... A new set of hubs all round every 4200/8400miles is hardly fixed... The repair bills will be horrendous and the depreciation on all CL cars will accelerate as the market begins to acknowledge these ridiculous maintenance schedules recently introduced for all CL cars...

Originally Posted by C.J. Ichiban

man it sure is hilarious reading all of the opinions on 458, 430Scud, 4.0RS, etc etc

I have driven on track, coached or owned 996GT3 cup car, 993TT, 430, audi R8, gt3, GT3RS, GT3RS 3.8, CGT, 599, Bentley ContiGT super sports, MP4, F3000, F-atlantic, Grand-am cars, scca cars, etc etc

It is very easy to feel like an expert on subjects on the internet- but the fact of the matter is that every car is a different car with different strengths and weaknesses.

If you are waiting for a car to drop, hoping for a car to drop, etc then don't complain about the cost of the car, I mean, it's not like you own one yet anyway. When you own the car, "it's all the way depreciated, it's RARE, etc" sounds just as stupid to me.

The F40 is a collector car. a 997GT3 is not a collector car. neither is a Gt2. neither is an R8, MP4, or a Gallardo, or even a 430 Scud for that matter. and if you are collecting you better not be putting mileage on your cars.

the gt3RS 4.0 MIGHT be. maybe. unless the new 991GT3RS blows it away then it will just be like the 3.8RS with extra aero bits and some more HP. so no need to argue about that either. zero mile 4.0RS in 2030 will be worth money!! woohoo. but a beat to hell 3.8 or 4.0 with 20k-45k miles or more in 2030 will be worth what a 60k mile 993TT is worth.

every street car (except veyron, K-egg, P1, 918, etc) is just a street car, an appliance, a fun way of getting around and playing around at the track from time to time.

okay that rant is over. next: Ferrari dealers by and large are complete jerks. I refuse to ever buy a new ferrari, or pay over sticker etc. Some people are happy to go pay 300k for a 458 (plus options) but that is no different than the 430Scud when it came out, or the 360 Challenge Stradale- my point is that some guys keep drinking the Ferrari Kool-Aid and are fooled by the cheater "test special" that some mags turn a blind eye to. The MP4 is lighter, more efficient, more unique, and newer technology (although the spygate scandal was largely around the development of the 458 and MP4 from what I recall). Carbon tub is the safest thing you can sit in.

porsche makes great great cars. durable cars- kind of. nobody knows what the new PDK is going to last like, the coolant hose issues are due to Value Engineering (just wait with VW...more to come) and the centerlock fiasco is wacky at best. That being said- FOR THE MONEY (~100-120k) the Gt3RS is the best car. let's not look totally through rose colored glasses though- RMS leaks, clutch failures, lemon law, I've been reading this board for years and it has been a fickle little bitch compared to the 993 which only has ever had one issue (in 15 years of ownership)- carbon build up on valves.

but- for my money and with the 3 GT3/RS cars that I've owned- I never was excited to drive them on the street, never impressed with the interior. I loved driving my RS's on the track (infineon, Laguna, willow, buttonwillow, fontana, TWS, MSR) but once I started racing I saw DE days as a waste of time and money. Racing (especially endurance racing or formula cars) is way more fun, dynamic, challenging, etc etc.

so my judgement is clouded severely. I think you guys are nuts for not just paying the same amount and doing the Patron/Yokohama GT3 Cup series (come race for my team in 2014) getting real coaching, new tracks, hell maybe getting on TV.

My CGT has done some track days- but lets be honest with a $27,000 clutch and $15,000 body panels (each) go ahead and track yours. let me know how that responds to hoosier R6s. I'll just take mine on nice long highway drives or canyon runs instead. I drive it once or twice a month- I've put 7k miles on mine in 3+ years of ownership.

My MP4 might see some track time- I would love to. It is explosive. Dynamic. but more than anything, it's refined. If I want suicidal I drive my Triumph 675R. but it's my daily driver- commuter. I got it late May '12 and it has about 6K miles on it. I beat the pants of that thing and I've never seen the limit or close to it- it's the best handling car I've ever driven. It's the modern vision of a CGT- same HP, similar torque- but stronger, smaller, more efficient, more adjustable, WAY more practical (like a 997TT PDK practical).

It is like owning a CGT and a Bentley GT at the same time, depending on what mode you are in. Old school is dead at the track- new cars are like spaceships- TCS, DCT, PASM, etc etc will be on every car from now on. Whoever made the comment about the Carbon Tub being a bad thing- Tell the F1 drivers they don't need carbon tubs. The reason why people survive when they crash Enzos at 160mph into a telephone pole is because they have a carbon tub!

for the record I respect that all you guys track your cars, push them to your limits, etc. But don't mistake your car for a race car- it is not. Neither is my CGT, or my MP4, neither was my 599.

and for the record, the two M-dealers (park place dallas and Beverly Hills) have been awesome. I've dealt with 5 or 6 Porsche dealers, 3 F-car dealers, and 3 audi dealers. I'm also a dealer myself and have to say that the majority of dealers are crappy. Newport Beach Ferrari has been nice, and I had a good experience with a Gt3 at the Collection in Miami, but other than that it's been mixed at best with the rest.

McLaren wants to sell cars, wants to service cars, wants to maintain cars and keep customers happy. I'm very happy with them. I drink their Kool-Aid, and am ordering a P1.

I also love porsches and am excited about the 961Prototype, the new boxster S, and eventually the 991GT3RS.

if you only have 120k and want to do DE- go get an RS.

if you have 160k- get the 430Scud

If you have more than that- go get a racing license.

Originally Posted by a.928

hi cj ichiban,

many valid points..fully agree about the carbon..nothing is better than that. I am also with you that the Mclaren is a good car - but Ok - havent driven one yet - will be done in spring..but I cant imagine it to be a disappointment.

About the racing licence and street cars..yes, in fact I have been thinking about this too..should I ever buy a Porsche again..or go directly for GT3 CUP..or a Formula race car...someone in my Porsche club has a used GP2 car..thats what Im looking for.....however, maintenance is a serious cost issue..and unfortuntely my budget does not permit me to buy a P1..or something of that class.

When you talk about collectors cars..well, yes the F40 is one..I agree that my 997 GT3 and GT2..are probably not..but your answer is a bit too easy. Fact is that when the 996 turbo came out..everybody said that the 993 would probably never be a collectors item...well, prices of 993 turbos have risen, like they have for 964 3.6 turbo, 356 carrera, 2,7RS, 935, 962..for me these are all collector cars..of course the 935 more than a 964 3.6 turbo..but each has its own class. Now coming back to your argument..a 4.0L will maybe be a collectors item..about 1300 2,7RRS have been produced..thats more then GT2RS and 4.0 together!!. I think youre making a slight mistake in putting any 997 or any Mclaren, or any R8 in the same box. There are still differences and one has to differentiate very clearly..I give you another example, I never believed that the 996 GT3 RS would become a "collectors item"..well..prices for these have been going are quite a lot here in Europe...and we are talking about the 996..not the most beautiful Porsche ever. The more rare a car is..the more chances it has of becoming a collectors item. The GT2RS and GT3RS 4.0 clearly follow this logic..and are far rarer than a MP 4-12, an R8 or a 458. The scuderia 430 is of course a different story..and for me belongs to the same "box" as a GT2RS or 4.0..althought I suspect there are more scuderias then there are GT2RS..

Wishing you all the best for your P1 and we would be happy to hear from you once you get it.

Originally Posted by a.928

hi 911rox,

well, where does it say that with the new recall, you have to go back after 8400mile and replace them with new ones? Im not aware of this..maybe I didnt read the letters with enough detail..

thanks for the info..

Originally Posted by TRAKCAR

What is the same amount exactly?
If I go racing I want to be on TV. I have not planned much for 2014 yet.