MP4-12C Depreciation
02-10-2013, 12:53 AM
#91
This thread has raised some questions in my mind. Hope you gents wouldn't mind answering them.
CJ
- Can you speak to the reliability of the MP on the track? I read in the earlier tests they had some bugs, particularly in the suspension. I also read about the overheating issues but that's been addressed in this thread.
- Do the turbos have a tendency to heat soak under hard driving?
- Is there any way to turn all the electronic gizmos off? Have you been brave enough to try?
- I read that the car requires a particular style of driving on track to get all of the electronics to perform at their best? Is it a difficult car to set up for track days? Seems like the more electronic systems they have the more it might be dependent on being "just right" for any track
NJGT
- Can you confirm that your commentary about the performance enhancements on the 458 as educated guesses based on Ferrari's past? I read on another site that the European test car had a noticeably lower ride height so it wouldn't surprise me if something fishy was going on. By the same logic though, I think that it was Top Gear that said between the day they reviewed the car and the day they took it to the track Mclaren spent the entire time tweaking it.
- what makes a typical Euro-spec Ferrari, in particular the 458, faster around the track besides the fuel they can use?
Thanks very much in advance guys. I envy both of your ownership experiences.
CJ
- Can you speak to the reliability of the MP on the track? I read in the earlier tests they had some bugs, particularly in the suspension. I also read about the overheating issues but that's been addressed in this thread.
- Do the turbos have a tendency to heat soak under hard driving?
- Is there any way to turn all the electronic gizmos off? Have you been brave enough to try?
- I read that the car requires a particular style of driving on track to get all of the electronics to perform at their best? Is it a difficult car to set up for track days? Seems like the more electronic systems they have the more it might be dependent on being "just right" for any track
NJGT
- Can you confirm that your commentary about the performance enhancements on the 458 as educated guesses based on Ferrari's past? I read on another site that the European test car had a noticeably lower ride height so it wouldn't surprise me if something fishy was going on. By the same logic though, I think that it was Top Gear that said between the day they reviewed the car and the day they took it to the track Mclaren spent the entire time tweaking it.
- what makes a typical Euro-spec Ferrari, in particular the 458, faster around the track besides the fuel they can use?
Thanks very much in advance guys. I envy both of your ownership experiences.
02-10-2013, 01:33 AM
#93
Someone was crazy enough to get a tattoo of Tyrone Biggums (character on the Chappelle Show) which I thought was hilarious. Also the character won a fake Fear Factor implying no fear - something I hope to achieve when I race go karts (no enough $$$ to do the real thing yet).
02-10-2013, 07:52 AM
#94
Dang CJ!! I wish u responded before me so all I would have to say is Ditto!
To answer the questions:
1. I have done only 2.5 days at the track but I haven't heard of any suspension issues on the McLaren forum(McLarenlife.com). None of us who track it have had any issues. Regarding the TG tests and early mag tests: McLaren hasn't built cars before... Of course they were still messing with it. When Anthony Sheriiff was asked about this his response was that they treat their street cars like their F1 cars... Constantly refining! It might frustrate some people but the beauty is that even if u bought early like I did... McLaren will do software updates for FREE so that your car will be as good as the model on the sales floor!
2. Heat: Yes I have had issues. I drove my 12C at TWS in June. Air Temps were: 97. Track temp: 123. At the end of a session I had the oil temp bar go from grey to Orange. I had to shift at 6500 rpm, did a cool down lap and pitted early. The Oil temp was reading 229-231 so I wasn't too worried but since it was the first time I wanted to make sure. The biggest issue in the heat was that the Pirelli Street tires got hot and greasy!
3. I haven't had any heat soak issues when driving on the street.
4. The ESC can be turned off BUT why would u do that? The ESC is already 80% retarded in track mode. I wouldn't want to push my luck beyond that in a 600 Hp Mid engine Twin turbo Rocket!
5. Any particular driving style: I wouldn't say so... The 12c can be driven very quickly with minimal skill BUT to truly master the car's potential you need a lot of track time and a good coach!
6. Somebody asked earlier what McLaren did for us owners at F1: Not much really. They had a VIP suite with food and drinks and goody bags for $3500. I was going to sign up for it But then I would miss out on all my buddies who didn't own a 12C and didnt sign up so I passed. I might do it next year if I take my wife.
To answer the questions:
1. I have done only 2.5 days at the track but I haven't heard of any suspension issues on the McLaren forum(McLarenlife.com). None of us who track it have had any issues. Regarding the TG tests and early mag tests: McLaren hasn't built cars before... Of course they were still messing with it. When Anthony Sheriiff was asked about this his response was that they treat their street cars like their F1 cars... Constantly refining! It might frustrate some people but the beauty is that even if u bought early like I did... McLaren will do software updates for FREE so that your car will be as good as the model on the sales floor!
2. Heat: Yes I have had issues. I drove my 12C at TWS in June. Air Temps were: 97. Track temp: 123. At the end of a session I had the oil temp bar go from grey to Orange. I had to shift at 6500 rpm, did a cool down lap and pitted early. The Oil temp was reading 229-231 so I wasn't too worried but since it was the first time I wanted to make sure. The biggest issue in the heat was that the Pirelli Street tires got hot and greasy!
3. I haven't had any heat soak issues when driving on the street.
4. The ESC can be turned off BUT why would u do that? The ESC is already 80% retarded in track mode. I wouldn't want to push my luck beyond that in a 600 Hp Mid engine Twin turbo Rocket!
5. Any particular driving style: I wouldn't say so... The 12c can be driven very quickly with minimal skill BUT to truly master the car's potential you need a lot of track time and a good coach!
6. Somebody asked earlier what McLaren did for us owners at F1: Not much really. They had a VIP suite with food and drinks and goody bags for $3500. I was going to sign up for it But then I would miss out on all my buddies who didn't own a 12C and didnt sign up so I passed. I might do it next year if I take my wife.
Last edited by Ritesh; 02-10-2013 at 08:19 AM. Reason: Stupid IPad issues!!
02-10-2013, 08:35 AM
#95
One other comment about price: I laugh when I see people say that the 12c is a $175k/200k/225k car. Name another car with a CF tub that is so " cheap". Think about it: The Ferrari option with a CF tub is an Enzo or the New F150 supercar. Good luck getting one of those. The P1 has a CF tub with an upgraded 12C motor and KERS. It will list for ~$800K. Compared to those cars the 12c is a relative bargain
. I personally think they should have priced it higher then the F458 but the Market wouldn't support that! Maybe I have been drinking too much McLaren koolaid
Those of u who say..."I am just going to get a F458". Try walking down to your local Fiat dealership and ordering a NEW one. They will kindly ask you to buy a used Cali or a FF(which they can't seem to move even at discount)... So you will be buying one or 2(!) Fiats before U get the priveledge of owning a new One! You think that makes more financial sense? Hahahaha!!
. I personally think they should have priced it higher then the F458 but the Market wouldn't support that! Maybe I have been drinking too much McLaren koolaid Those of u who say..."I am just going to get a F458". Try walking down to your local Fiat dealership and ordering a NEW one. They will kindly ask you to buy a used Cali or a FF(which they can't seem to move even at discount)... So you will be buying one or 2(!) Fiats before U get the priveledge of owning a new One! You think that makes more financial sense? Hahahaha!!
Last edited by Ritesh; 02-10-2013 at 08:55 AM. Reason: iPad issues!!
02-10-2013, 06:05 PM
#99
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For anyone interested, there are 7 MP4-12C (or 6 if a friend closed the deal) in Tampa. All of them under $230k, some under $220k, these are asking prices, selling prices will likely be lower, mileage between 25 and 1,500 miles.
If a 50 miles car sells for $215k, I don't think the days of sub $200k MP4-12C are far away, add 10,000 miles, and track use, and these $215k cars become $195k in the current market.
Keep in mind that McLaren will upgrade these cars to the new electronics for free (625Hp, updates to the transmission and suspension electronics, and a deeper exhaust note).
This car is a bargain, build quality is better than Fiat and VW, I don't think there is a better GT street car today (except the 458 press cars).
If a 50 miles car sells for $215k, I don't think the days of sub $200k MP4-12C are far away, add 10,000 miles, and track use, and these $215k cars become $195k in the current market.
Keep in mind that McLaren will upgrade these cars to the new electronics for free (625Hp, updates to the transmission and suspension electronics, and a deeper exhaust note).
This car is a bargain, build quality is better than Fiat and VW, I don't think there is a better GT street car today (except the 458 press cars).
02-10-2013, 08:57 PM
#100
Rennlist Member
Then again this confidence is best applied with discretion... Stock Pirellis on this car don't do it justice--there's far more car than rubber there. Put on a set of real r-comps and it's good for 4-6 hot laps at my home track--as good as a 458 would do. And it beats the 458 by two whole secs on a 1:45ish lap. Aero beetles might as well be parked in comparison. Not all is lost tho, at least we outlast the Maccas by another 6-10 laps...
02-10-2013, 09:51 PM
#102
Rennlist Member
For anyone interested, there are 7 MP4-12C (or 6 if a friend closed the deal) in Tampa. All of them under $230k, some under $220k, these are asking prices, selling prices will likely be lower, mileage between 25 and 1,500 miles.
If a 50 miles car sells for $215k, I don't think the days of sub $200k MP4-12C are far away, add 10,000 miles, and track use, and these $215k cars become $195k in the current market.
Keep in mind that McLaren will upgrade these cars to the new electronics for free (625Hp, updates to the transmission and suspension electronics, and a deeper exhaust note).
This car is a bargain, build quality is better than Fiat and VW, I don't think there is a better GT street car today (except the 458 press cars).
If a 50 miles car sells for $215k, I don't think the days of sub $200k MP4-12C are far away, add 10,000 miles, and track use, and these $215k cars become $195k in the current market.
Keep in mind that McLaren will upgrade these cars to the new electronics for free (625Hp, updates to the transmission and suspension electronics, and a deeper exhaust note).
This car is a bargain, build quality is better than Fiat and VW, I don't think there is a better GT street car today (except the 458 press cars).
02-10-2013, 09:59 PM
#103
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but i'd like to add that another possible reason might be people's growing A.D.D and disinterest in allocating large amounts of money into preserving significant fragments of the past, as the future accelerates, allures and captivates.
02-12-2013, 02:43 AM
#104
Ritesh, thanks very much for your commentary! Very glad that you're enjoying the car that much. I ask about the electronics for a few reasons. I'm curious to see how dependent the chassis is on the electronics. When Top Gear drove the 599 GTO, they said that Ferrari intentionally made the car unstable so that it would perform best when the electronics were turned on. My guess is that the Mclaren is the same way. You also answered my question about how easy the car is to drive thanks to the electronics. Sounds like the GT2/3 would be a more pleasurable car because of the amount of involvement, but that the Mclaren would clearly be faster. Enjoy in good health.
02-13-2013, 01:50 AM
#105
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in regards to driving style- it is not set up for big smoke inducing drifts if that is what you mean. it's whole ethos is to get your *** around the lap as fast as possible...so you just drive it like an LMP or formula car:
three easy steps!
Left Foot Brake super deep!
immediately bleeding off and slightly dragging down to apex or right before (one big load on suspension), and then
rolling on throttle to balance chassis for a tick until you can get to full power and smash it down ASAP, preventing wheelspin by pointing the front early towards track out (keep unwinding to slowly unload the lateral G)
most people aren't comfortable using or modulating a LFB but in a car like this or a 458 that is the best way to keep the chassis balanced and the weight in the right corner/side of the car- also allows for faster transitions onto the gas pedal (reducing "lag")
also because the MP4 has active brake steer you can utilize that extra rotation to plunge a bit deeper into the corner- if you have never driven a formula mazda or atlantic car or something that likes to give a tiny slide down to the apex you should try it!
three easy steps!
Left Foot Brake super deep!
immediately bleeding off and slightly dragging down to apex or right before (one big load on suspension), and then
rolling on throttle to balance chassis for a tick until you can get to full power and smash it down ASAP, preventing wheelspin by pointing the front early towards track out (keep unwinding to slowly unload the lateral G)
most people aren't comfortable using or modulating a LFB but in a car like this or a 458 that is the best way to keep the chassis balanced and the weight in the right corner/side of the car- also allows for faster transitions onto the gas pedal (reducing "lag")
also because the MP4 has active brake steer you can utilize that extra rotation to plunge a bit deeper into the corner- if you have never driven a formula mazda or atlantic car or something that likes to give a tiny slide down to the apex you should try it!