MP4-12C Depreciation
02-07-2013, 04:53 PM
#46
Burning Brakes
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All good in theory. In the real world there are currently two 3.8 RS's on Porsche used car finder and one on Cars.com vs 54 MP4-12C's.
Not taking anything away from the McLaren but that's like saying you should be able to buy a Ferrari 250 GTO for $250k, $500k, $750k....pick a number.
Not taking anything away from the McLaren but that's like saying you should be able to buy a Ferrari 250 GTO for $250k, $500k, $750k....pick a number.
The real question is what happens long term..if there will never be a manual GT3 again..then I doubt that 997.2GT3RS will ever see the 100,000€/$ from below. 4.0 and GT2RS will be a different world anyway.
Yes, the Mclaren seems to be a stunning car - the other day I read that Mclaren is now loosing money on every single one..this is not a good develpment for such a good looking car. I hope Mclaren will not be forced to take it out of production ..
02-07-2013, 05:03 PM
#47
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All good in theory. In the real world there are currently two 3.8 RS's on Porsche used car finder and one on Cars.com vs 54 MP4-12C's.
Not taking anything away from the McLaren but that's like saying you should be able to buy a Ferrari 250 GTO for $250k, $500k, $750k....pick a number.
Not taking anything away from the McLaren but that's like saying you should be able to buy a Ferrari 250 GTO for $250k, $500k, $750k....pick a number.
02-07-2013, 05:14 PM
#49
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From a lap standpoint, it should honestly destroy a 458 or GT3 at Sebring, mostly because it's non-swaybar suspension allows it to soak up bumps much better, and put down power more effectively. I don't even like the car and I'll concede that.
02-07-2013, 05:43 PM
#50
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02-08-2013, 01:09 PM
#51
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here's my random thoughts:
for those who think 3.8RS should be $80k - I'm sure it will happen, keep waiting, as it will take a while.
458 and 12C are way overpriced for a small performance advantage over 3.8 or 4.0RS. They will not earn my money at all.
As for 12C having no track support, how about when our CL wheel break off, I don't see any good support there. And our coolant hoses... Damn.
for those who think 3.8RS should be $80k - I'm sure it will happen, keep waiting, as it will take a while.
458 and 12C are way overpriced for a small performance advantage over 3.8 or 4.0RS. They will not earn my money at all.
As for 12C having no track support, how about when our CL wheel break off, I don't see any good support there. And our coolant hoses... Damn.
02-08-2013, 01:54 PM
#52
Burning Brakes
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here's my random thoughts:
for those who think 3.8RS should be $80k - I'm sure it will happen, keep waiting, as it will take a while.
458 and 12C are way overpriced for a small performance advantage over 3.8 or 4.0RS. They will not earn my money at all.
As for 12C having no track support, how about when our CL wheel break off, I don't see any good support there. And our coolant hoses... Damn.
for those who think 3.8RS should be $80k - I'm sure it will happen, keep waiting, as it will take a while.
458 and 12C are way overpriced for a small performance advantage over 3.8 or 4.0RS. They will not earn my money at all.
As for 12C having no track support, how about when our CL wheel break off, I don't see any good support there. And our coolant hoses... Damn.
What for the real problem of CL is..you cant change wheels alone anymore..but Ok..they look better though..
02-08-2013, 02:21 PM
#54
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As soon as the 991 GT3 shows up at dealer showrooms, all these tired, timed-out hubs, unhealthy engines and transmissions, track day 997.2 GT3 RS 3.8 will flood the used market.
The only reason the 8 years old Aero Beetles are keeping good resale is supply/demand. VW is not selling Aero Beetles for a long time, last model was a 2011.
VW is bringing a 991GT3 and a 991GT3RS, both will be vastly superior to the outgoing cars. Yes, they might have more electronics, but that has never been a problem, the open top and nannies loaded 997.1 GT3/RS outsold the 996 GT3 (the real purist GT3, the driver's GT3).
The 991 GT3 is coming with PDK, this is going to bring more buyers than ever. The 996.2 GT3 sold more units than the 996.1 GT3, the 997.1 GT3 sold even more, the 997.2 GT2 even more. Back when I had my 996 GT3, I was lucky if I saw another GT3 at a PCA event, these days GT3s are everywhere. GT3s have track credibility, so their appeal increases year by year, as long as VW can make many of them, they can sell all of them, they don't care about resale, they care about selling cars (promises of exclusivity on the 997.1 GT3 RS seem to vanish).
997 are not collector's items, 911 are (pre-88), CGT, 959, GT1, 993 GT2. VW still has not played the GT3 RSR street car card yet, another yet to come super special edition.
The only reason the 8 years old Aero Beetles are keeping good resale is supply/demand. VW is not selling Aero Beetles for a long time, last model was a 2011.
VW is bringing a 991GT3 and a 991GT3RS, both will be vastly superior to the outgoing cars. Yes, they might have more electronics, but that has never been a problem, the open top and nannies loaded 997.1 GT3/RS outsold the 996 GT3 (the real purist GT3, the driver's GT3).
The 991 GT3 is coming with PDK, this is going to bring more buyers than ever. The 996.2 GT3 sold more units than the 996.1 GT3, the 997.1 GT3 sold even more, the 997.2 GT2 even more. Back when I had my 996 GT3, I was lucky if I saw another GT3 at a PCA event, these days GT3s are everywhere. GT3s have track credibility, so their appeal increases year by year, as long as VW can make many of them, they can sell all of them, they don't care about resale, they care about selling cars (promises of exclusivity on the 997.1 GT3 RS seem to vanish).
997 are not collector's items, 911 are (pre-88), CGT, 959, GT1, 993 GT2. VW still has not played the GT3 RSR street car card yet, another yet to come super special edition.
02-08-2013, 02:31 PM
#55
The reality is all the cars mentioned are all great. Which one is more durable
that's tbd.
I've been Very fortunate to have had rides or driven most of them, and have tracked with most. The white McLaren in my videos is blindingly fast in a straight line (no substitute for a double clutch gearbox), the gentleman drives his car hard and it seems to be durable, afaik.
That being said the Scud also hold it's own with proper maintenance,
and with a better setup is Very quick. Then there's the GT2, enough said
https://vimeo.com/53805548
that's tbd.
I've been Very fortunate to have had rides or driven most of them, and have tracked with most. The white McLaren in my videos is blindingly fast in a straight line (no substitute for a double clutch gearbox), the gentleman drives his car hard and it seems to be durable, afaik.
That being said the Scud also hold it's own with proper maintenance,
and with a better setup is Very quick. Then there's the GT2, enough said
https://vimeo.com/53805548
02-08-2013, 02:45 PM
#56
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here's my random thoughts:
for those who think 3.8RS should be $80k - I'm sure it will happen, keep waiting, as it will take a while.
458 and 12C are way overpriced for a small performance advantage over 3.8 or 4.0RS. They will not earn my money at all.
As for 12C having no track support, how about when our CL wheel break off, I don't see any good support there. And our coolant hoses... Damn.
for those who think 3.8RS should be $80k - I'm sure it will happen, keep waiting, as it will take a while.
458 and 12C are way overpriced for a small performance advantage over 3.8 or 4.0RS. They will not earn my money at all.
As for 12C having no track support, how about when our CL wheel break off, I don't see any good support there. And our coolant hoses... Damn.
The time to buy a 458 is 2 years from now, the time to sell it is right now.
The 12C will continue its resale fall, many factors at play:
- Carbon tub cannot be straightened in case of accident, making it a total loss, insurance companies will adjust premiums as time passes.
- Unknown long term reliability
- British made, check resale on British cars in U.S.
- Unknown parts availability in the future
- Soft style (it's small and not exotic looking enough for its maket range)
The 12C is a better car than the 458 and the 430 Scuderia, in every sense. It is a technological marvel, no much love for the car in the U.S. market, at the current price it is a bargain, but it will keep getting cheaper. As an occasional track day car, spirited driving, cone dodging, occasional drag strip visits, and cars and coffee, it is better than the two Fiats mentioned.
The 458 beating the 12C in magazines tests is just tricked, the silver FNA 458 press car is more powerful and lighter than anything you can order at a Fiat dealer, the bald tires have been shaved to produce great lap times, it puts an extra 30whp, and it loss near 90 lbs over the lightest possible configuration for an U.S. car, very likely it is a Euro version with a U.S. make-up. This has been documented twice (R&T and C&D). In real life, the 458 and 430 Scuderia have nothing for the 12C, the 12C beats the 458 in every performance test. Non-press 458 and 12C were tested in Germany by SportAuto, and the 12C put a smack down on the 458.
I want an Orange one with Black wheels, and some of that Chinese Revo cosmetics, and the EvoMSiT magic, and muffler out for better cooling, and the new engine cooling ducts, Endless pads, 19" wheels made by John Purner, and a nice set of sticky Pirelli slicks. It will be in the new Diamond DE Cup.
02-08-2013, 03:23 PM
#57
Burning Brakes
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As soon as the 991 GT3 shows up at dealer showrooms, all these tired, timed-out hubs, unhealthy engines and transmissions, track day 997.2 GT3 RS 3.8 will flood the used market.
The only reason the 8 years old Aero Beetles are keeping good resale is supply/demand. VW is not selling Aero Beetles for a long time, last model was a 2011.
VW is bringing a 991GT3 and a 991GT3RS, both will be vastly superior to the outgoing cars. Yes, they might have more electronics, but that has never been a problem, the open top and nannies loaded 997.1 GT3/RS outsold the 996 GT3 (the real purist GT3, the driver's GT3).
The 991 GT3 is coming with PDK, this is going to bring more buyers than ever. The 996.2 GT3 sold more units than the 996.1 GT3, the 997.1 GT3 sold even more, the 997.2 GT2 even more. Back when I had my 996 GT3, I was lucky if I saw another GT3 at a PCA event, these days GT3s are everywhere. GT3s have track credibility, so their appeal increases year by year, as long as VW can make many of them, they can sell all of them, they don't care about resale, they care about selling cars (promises of exclusivity on the 997.1 GT3 RS seem to vanish).
997 are not collector's items, 911 are (pre-88), CGT, 959, GT1, 993 GT2. VW still has not played the GT3 RSR street car card yet, another yet to come super special edition.
The only reason the 8 years old Aero Beetles are keeping good resale is supply/demand. VW is not selling Aero Beetles for a long time, last model was a 2011.
VW is bringing a 991GT3 and a 991GT3RS, both will be vastly superior to the outgoing cars. Yes, they might have more electronics, but that has never been a problem, the open top and nannies loaded 997.1 GT3/RS outsold the 996 GT3 (the real purist GT3, the driver's GT3).
The 991 GT3 is coming with PDK, this is going to bring more buyers than ever. The 996.2 GT3 sold more units than the 996.1 GT3, the 997.1 GT3 sold even more, the 997.2 GT2 even more. Back when I had my 996 GT3, I was lucky if I saw another GT3 at a PCA event, these days GT3s are everywhere. GT3s have track credibility, so their appeal increases year by year, as long as VW can make many of them, they can sell all of them, they don't care about resale, they care about selling cars (promises of exclusivity on the 997.1 GT3 RS seem to vanish).
997 are not collector's items, 911 are (pre-88), CGT, 959, GT1, 993 GT2. VW still has not played the GT3 RSR street car card yet, another yet to come super special edition.
How many 997.1 and 997.2 GT3RS are there in the US? Just asking for curiosity..one thing is sure..there are more 458s and Mp12s out there then GT3RS..
02-08-2013, 03:47 PM
#58
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I rarely, if ever, see another 997 GT2, yet the GT2 relative values are well below the NA cars which are a dime a dozen at the track and coffee events. That shows us that the market is not logical- mostly based on perceived value and little to do with exclusivity/rarity. If the GT3/RS values don't go down, that's fine, $80K is where the buck stops for me on the 997.2 GT3 RS, and $140K for the 12C.
There were approximately 220 997 GT2, 200 997 GT2RS, and about 550 997.2 GT3RS. No idea on the 4.0 GT3 RS or the 997.1 NA cars.
458 is a $300K proposition- base plus options plus tax. Price is closer to the GT2RS than the 4.0 in my opinion. 458 and 12C occupy the same mindspace/pricepoint, the 997 based high end Porsches are one step lower and more akin to a used 430 Scud pricepoint. Performance wise, it's a wash, the buyer will like what he/she likes, with little regard to the rest.
There were approximately 220 997 GT2, 200 997 GT2RS, and about 550 997.2 GT3RS. No idea on the 4.0 GT3 RS or the 997.1 NA cars.
458 is a $300K proposition- base plus options plus tax. Price is closer to the GT2RS than the 4.0 in my opinion. 458 and 12C occupy the same mindspace/pricepoint, the 997 based high end Porsches are one step lower and more akin to a used 430 Scud pricepoint. Performance wise, it's a wash, the buyer will like what he/she likes, with little regard to the rest.
02-08-2013, 03:49 PM
#59
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I want an Orange one with Black wheels, and some of that Chinese Revo cosmetics, and the EvoMSiT magic, and muffler out for better cooling, and the new engine cooling ducts, Endless pads, 19" wheels made by John Purner, and a nice set of sticky Pirelli slicks. It will be in the new Diamond DE Cup.
