MP4-12C Depreciation
02-07-2013, 08:21 AM
#16
Burning Brakes
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If ferrari gets its design back to glory..than the story will be different..
02-07-2013, 10:29 AM
#17
Rennlist Member
They have supposedly "tweaked" the traction control and setup since it's release, to make it more "fun" and less twitchy at the limit. Remember the Fifth Gear review where Tiff and Plato didn't like it at the track?
Make no mistake, it posts hypercar (not supercar) performance numbers, and with R-comps, and proper pads, it should dominate virtually anything on track. I'm guessing at some point, just like everybody else, they will offer a "GT" model where it comes with seats, rollbars, and harnesses (similar to the R8).
Anybody can make some 18" or 19" track wheels for it.
Akebono is who makes the brakes (calipers) for the standard steel package (370mm/350mm discs), so track pads can be found.
Make no mistake, it posts hypercar (not supercar) performance numbers, and with R-comps, and proper pads, it should dominate virtually anything on track. I'm guessing at some point, just like everybody else, they will offer a "GT" model where it comes with seats, rollbars, and harnesses (similar to the R8).
Anybody can make some 18" or 19" track wheels for it.
Akebono is who makes the brakes (calipers) for the standard steel package (370mm/350mm discs), so track pads can be found.
02-07-2013, 11:01 AM
#18
Rennlist Member
Sure theoretically it is OK.
You buy a $220K McLaren, then what?
But what shop can advice you on a roll bar? Do they even exist?
Any shared data from others who track the car more than 3 laps at the time like Rad to see what to use, what lasts, setup? Allignment?
You buy a $220K McLaren, then what?
But what shop can advice you on a roll bar? Do they even exist?
Any shared data from others who track the car more than 3 laps at the time like Rad to see what to use, what lasts, setup? Allignment?
02-07-2013, 11:03 AM
#19
yes - the 458 engine ist proabably the best thing the car has..I would prefer that over the Mp4-12 too..but a car - of which I dont like the design and that has 1000 electronic gizmos...I will not buy..just a superb engine is unfortuntely not enough.
If ferrari gets its design back to glory..than the story will be different..
If ferrari gets its design back to glory..than the story will be different..
02-07-2013, 11:44 AM
#20
Three Wheelin'
I have driven a 458 on a track and I was thoroughly impressed. Impressed to the point that I would own one, of course after having a 4.0 in my garage.
I can't help it, I'm a 911 kool aider. But seriously, the 458 is an amazing driver's car, nimble, fast, awesome sound, and stunning looks.
I can't help it, I'm a 911 kool aider. But seriously, the 458 is an amazing driver's car, nimble, fast, awesome sound, and stunning looks.
02-07-2013, 12:25 PM
#21
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I have driven 3 different 458 Italias, 2 599 (one of them a HGTE), and from these 5 cars, the HGTE is my choice.
Then I recently drove the MP4-12C, and did not close the deal because the purchase price and trade-in on the Fiat was like giving away 2 Scuderias for the 12C.
Trakcar doesn't know anything on cars other than mid 90s Mustangs, not even anything on P-cars because he does zero work on them.
Properly optioned, the 12C U.S. version is just 50 lbs heavier than a standard 430 Scuderia, and 300 lbs lighter than a 458.
There are track brake pads available from many manufacturers, the 12C shares CCM rotors and pads with Fiat and GM.
Engine is made by Ricardo, the Mezger has nothing for this engine.
Tranny is made by Graziano, lightest DCT made to date, and no VW tranny (manual or auto-PDK) has nothing on this.
The brake cooling ducts on the optional (mandatory imho) CCM brakes are a work of art, something VW and the Aero Beetle fan boys can only dream of.
The 12C independently tested produced more downforce than a GT3 RS 4.0, and this flavor of GT3 is the GT2/GT3 street car with the highest downforce number produced ever by the Beetle factory.
Right now, there are a lot of 12C with under 3,000 miles for sale under $220k, when MSRP on them was between $270k-$300k. The car has depreciated badly in just one year, but it will continue that trend because: it is British, it is a new brand, it doesn't look exotic, it doesn't have track credibility.
At less than $220k right now, it is practically on the same price range as the GT3 RS 4.0, and the cars cannot be compared, the 4.0RS is a pig (heavy), it has a weak engine (power wise), a weak engine (durability wise), stupid look at me wings that looks horrid on public streets, ugly graphics, and it looks as attractive as $38k used 2005 997 Carrera 3.4 with a Japanese body kit.
I think the 12C will continue to depreciate, there is no love for the car in U.S.
I would have bought one if the numbers made sense when I test drove it, and almost did it. At this time, the numbers make a lot more sense, as I can trade-in the Scuderia and get the 12C for more, but not as much as another Scuderia. However, I will wait another year because they will keep depreciating.
McLaren parts are $$$$ (in U.S.), they have implemented the Fiat model, but at other places around the planet parts are more affordable.
The car can run 19" wheels all around, and in these sizes there are plenty of tires. This car with a set of sticky tires would put all the Aero Beetles to shame.
For late 2012, among the changes, they have increased the threshold for temperature warnings (causing limp mode on some cars). This was not a fault of Graziano or Ricardo, it was McLaren IT guys with no clue on proper temperatures. A very nice set of cooling ducts for the engine is already available from a race shop in U.K.
In between a 430 Scuderia and a MP4-12C, the 12C (with an open diff) gets my preference.
Then I recently drove the MP4-12C, and did not close the deal because the purchase price and trade-in on the Fiat was like giving away 2 Scuderias for the 12C.
Trakcar doesn't know anything on cars other than mid 90s Mustangs, not even anything on P-cars because he does zero work on them.
Properly optioned, the 12C U.S. version is just 50 lbs heavier than a standard 430 Scuderia, and 300 lbs lighter than a 458.
There are track brake pads available from many manufacturers, the 12C shares CCM rotors and pads with Fiat and GM.
Engine is made by Ricardo, the Mezger has nothing for this engine.
Tranny is made by Graziano, lightest DCT made to date, and no VW tranny (manual or auto-PDK) has nothing on this.
The brake cooling ducts on the optional (mandatory imho) CCM brakes are a work of art, something VW and the Aero Beetle fan boys can only dream of.
The 12C independently tested produced more downforce than a GT3 RS 4.0, and this flavor of GT3 is the GT2/GT3 street car with the highest downforce number produced ever by the Beetle factory.
Right now, there are a lot of 12C with under 3,000 miles for sale under $220k, when MSRP on them was between $270k-$300k. The car has depreciated badly in just one year, but it will continue that trend because: it is British, it is a new brand, it doesn't look exotic, it doesn't have track credibility.
At less than $220k right now, it is practically on the same price range as the GT3 RS 4.0, and the cars cannot be compared, the 4.0RS is a pig (heavy), it has a weak engine (power wise), a weak engine (durability wise), stupid look at me wings that looks horrid on public streets, ugly graphics, and it looks as attractive as $38k used 2005 997 Carrera 3.4 with a Japanese body kit.
I think the 12C will continue to depreciate, there is no love for the car in U.S.
I would have bought one if the numbers made sense when I test drove it, and almost did it. At this time, the numbers make a lot more sense, as I can trade-in the Scuderia and get the 12C for more, but not as much as another Scuderia. However, I will wait another year because they will keep depreciating.
McLaren parts are $$$$ (in U.S.), they have implemented the Fiat model, but at other places around the planet parts are more affordable.
The car can run 19" wheels all around, and in these sizes there are plenty of tires. This car with a set of sticky tires would put all the Aero Beetles to shame.
For late 2012, among the changes, they have increased the threshold for temperature warnings (causing limp mode on some cars). This was not a fault of Graziano or Ricardo, it was McLaren IT guys with no clue on proper temperatures. A very nice set of cooling ducts for the engine is already available from a race shop in U.K.
In between a 430 Scuderia and a MP4-12C, the 12C (with an open diff) gets my preference.
02-07-2013, 12:33 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
I have driven 3 different 458 Italias, 2 599 (one of them a HGTE), and from these 5 cars, the HGTE is my choice.
Then I recently drove the MP4-12C, and did not close the deal because the purchase price and trade-in on the Fiat was like giving away 2 Scuderias for the 12C.
Trakcar doesn't know anything on cars other than mid 90s Mustangs, not even anything on P-cars because he does zero work on them.
Properly optioned, the 12C U.S. version is just 50 lbs heavier than a standard 430 Scuderia, and 300 lbs lighter than a 458.
There are track brake pads available from many manufacturers, the 12C shares CCM rotors and pads with Fiat and GM.
Engine is made by Ricardo, the Mezger has nothing for this engine.
Tranny is made by Graziano, lightest DCT made to date, and no VW tranny (manual or auto-PDK) has nothing on this.
The brake cooling ducts on the optional (mandatory imho) CCM brakes are a work of art, something VW and the Aero Beetle fan boys can only dream of.
The 12C independently tested produced more downforce than a GT3 RS 4.0, and this flavor of GT3 is the GT2/GT3 street car with the highest downforce number produced ever by the Beetle factory.
Right now, there are a lot of 12C with under 3,000 miles for sale under $220k, when MSRP on them was between $270k-$300k. The car has depreciated badly in just one year, but it will continue that trend because: it is British, it is a new brand, it doesn't look exotic, it doesn't have track credibility.
At less than $220k right now, it is practically on the same price range as the GT3 RS 4.0, and the cars cannot be compared, the 4.0RS is a pig (heavy), it has a weak engine (power wise), a weak engine (durability wise), stupid look at me wings that looks horrid on public streets, ugly graphics, and it looks as attractive as $38k used 2005 997 Carrera 3.4 with a Japanese body kit.
I think the 12C will continue to depreciate, there is no love for the car in U.S.
I would have bought one if the numbers made sense when I test drove it, and almost did it. At this time, the numbers make a lot more sense, as I can trade-in the Scuderia and get the 12C for more, but not as much as another Scuderia. However, I will wait another year because they will keep depreciating.
McLaren parts are $$$$ (in U.S.), they have implemented the Fiat model, but at other places around the planet parts are more affordable.
The car can run 19" wheels all around, and in these sizes there are plenty of tires. This car with a set of sticky tires would put all the Aero Beetles to shame.
For late 2012, among the changes, they have increased the threshold for temperature warnings (causing limp mode on some cars). This was not a fault of Graziano or Ricardo, it was McLaren IT guys with no clue on proper temperatures. A very nice set of cooling ducts for the engine is already available from a race shop in U.K.
In between a 430 Scuderia and a MP4-12C, the 12C (with an open diff) gets my preference.
Then I recently drove the MP4-12C, and did not close the deal because the purchase price and trade-in on the Fiat was like giving away 2 Scuderias for the 12C.
Trakcar doesn't know anything on cars other than mid 90s Mustangs, not even anything on P-cars because he does zero work on them.
Properly optioned, the 12C U.S. version is just 50 lbs heavier than a standard 430 Scuderia, and 300 lbs lighter than a 458.
There are track brake pads available from many manufacturers, the 12C shares CCM rotors and pads with Fiat and GM.
Engine is made by Ricardo, the Mezger has nothing for this engine.
Tranny is made by Graziano, lightest DCT made to date, and no VW tranny (manual or auto-PDK) has nothing on this.
The brake cooling ducts on the optional (mandatory imho) CCM brakes are a work of art, something VW and the Aero Beetle fan boys can only dream of.
The 12C independently tested produced more downforce than a GT3 RS 4.0, and this flavor of GT3 is the GT2/GT3 street car with the highest downforce number produced ever by the Beetle factory.
Right now, there are a lot of 12C with under 3,000 miles for sale under $220k, when MSRP on them was between $270k-$300k. The car has depreciated badly in just one year, but it will continue that trend because: it is British, it is a new brand, it doesn't look exotic, it doesn't have track credibility.
At less than $220k right now, it is practically on the same price range as the GT3 RS 4.0, and the cars cannot be compared, the 4.0RS is a pig (heavy), it has a weak engine (power wise), a weak engine (durability wise), stupid look at me wings that looks horrid on public streets, ugly graphics, and it looks as attractive as $38k used 2005 997 Carrera 3.4 with a Japanese body kit.
I think the 12C will continue to depreciate, there is no love for the car in U.S.
I would have bought one if the numbers made sense when I test drove it, and almost did it. At this time, the numbers make a lot more sense, as I can trade-in the Scuderia and get the 12C for more, but not as much as another Scuderia. However, I will wait another year because they will keep depreciating.
McLaren parts are $$$$ (in U.S.), they have implemented the Fiat model, but at other places around the planet parts are more affordable.
The car can run 19" wheels all around, and in these sizes there are plenty of tires. This car with a set of sticky tires would put all the Aero Beetles to shame.
For late 2012, among the changes, they have increased the threshold for temperature warnings (causing limp mode on some cars). This was not a fault of Graziano or Ricardo, it was McLaren IT guys with no clue on proper temperatures. A very nice set of cooling ducts for the engine is already available from a race shop in U.K.
In between a 430 Scuderia and a MP4-12C, the 12C (with an open diff) gets my preference.
Ever get the Scud fixed?
02-07-2013, 12:58 PM
#24
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There were 2 or 3 of them outside our Hotel at the F1 race in Austin, and IMO, they just don't look good. Something is missing, like a more aggressive stance and/or a rear wing.
The GT3 racing version of the car looks incredible. Reminds me of how the Mclaren F1 looked SO plain jane compared to the F1 LM.
I'm sure a sportier version will be offered at some point, so if I had the coin (which I definitely do not), I'd wait for that one.
The GT3 racing version of the car looks incredible. Reminds me of how the Mclaren F1 looked SO plain jane compared to the F1 LM.
I'm sure a sportier version will be offered at some point, so if I had the coin (which I definitely do not), I'd wait for that one.
Impressed with construction, engineering, and materials of the car. Less so with aesthetics and the turbo. No question the supercar bargain if/when prices fall below $200k for low-mileage examples.
02-07-2013, 01:01 PM
#25
Three Wheelin'
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I drove a 458 at Autobahn Country Club. It was Continental Autosports' car. Nice car. Very nice car. I still prefer the 12C, I think there's more potential in it, and if it does get to $140K used (even with 10K miles on the ode) I'm all about it. I don't care if it never gets on the track, I view it as a great GT car and occasional, once in a blue moon, DE car. Volcano Orange, CCB brakes, NAV, dark interior. The rest of the options are trinkets and won't influence the purchase. And I'd probably change out the front bumper cover to the REVOZPORT one that is slightly more aggressive- Middle East owners seem to be hopping on board with that too.
02-07-2013, 01:18 PM
#26
Nordschleife Master
waiting for CJ to chime in....
02-07-2013, 01:19 PM
#27
Drifting
One Day I'll have one. I use to say that about fiats but this has taken its place for me. Honestly though I'd prefer the drop top. There isn't a better convertible in both forms, ie. top up and with top down. That said it would be a car that I have taken on the track just to stretch its legs... No interest in trying to maintain such a car for track duty.
I'm happy they are depreciating. Makes it closer to reality for me.
I'm happy they are depreciating. Makes it closer to reality for me.
02-07-2013, 01:28 PM
#28
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I would not pay more than $60k for a 997 GT3 RS, $80k for a 3.8RS and $100k for a 4.0RS. These are obsolete cars, 8 years old, old technology, the world has moved on. Asking prices are a different matter, they are all overpriced. At my suggested prices, I like them, at their current prices, forget it.
Fiat fixed, 3 months wait. Rebuilding the old parts to have spares, as the part is going to fail again. Best sport car money can buy, even today, $175k doesn't buy anything better.
Fiat fixed, 3 months wait. Rebuilding the old parts to have spares, as the part is going to fail again. Best sport car money can buy, even today, $175k doesn't buy anything better.
02-07-2013, 01:43 PM
#30
Part of all of this is the "Look". The MP4-12 IMHO just doesn't have it for me. 4.0, 458, F430 any version has the look for me.
It has finished behind the 458 in all the tests. But, at 140K? If that happens there will not be many new ones sold.
It has finished behind the 458 in all the tests. But, at 140K? If that happens there will not be many new ones sold.