991 gt3 RS Transmission Choices - Further Speculation!
08-27-2012, 04:29 PM
#106
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I can't find the original German text, but +1 on a blipper. Not necessarily a bad thing if that's the case. From all the gismos , and as long as you can deactivate it on demand, this sounds pretty nice. Not everyone can H&T perfectly from day one.
08-27-2012, 05:22 PM
#108
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This is the gizmo stuff in the Nissan 370Z, auto-blipping on downshift.
This is what happens when Porsche uses a Nissan GTR to benchmark the next GT3, and a Nissan 370Z to benchmark the 991S. What's next? benchmarking the next Panamera using a Nissan Altima, and the Cayenne with the Juke.
This is what happens when Porsche uses a Nissan GTR to benchmark the next GT3, and a Nissan 370Z to benchmark the 991S. What's next? benchmarking the next Panamera using a Nissan Altima, and the Cayenne with the Juke.
08-27-2012, 05:25 PM
#109
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I do not see how a 'manual' transmission can (selectively) automatically double-declutch if their definition of double declutching is the same as mine (i.e the clutch is 'let out' momentarily while the transmission is in neutral, in-between de-selecting and re-selecting gears)...
I can see however how in sport-plus the eGas system would be able to sense a lower gear being selected, and prior to/as the clutch being released, blipping the gas to rev-match...
I can see however how in sport-plus the eGas system would be able to sense a lower gear being selected, and prior to/as the clutch being released, blipping the gas to rev-match...
08-27-2012, 05:33 PM
#110
Back on topic, the Porsche announcement this morning included this "In Sport Plus mode, the system automatically double-declutches during downshifts."
You stated previously that you think that the 'sport chrono version of the 7MT is going to have double wet clutches like a PDK'. Chris in Ca thinks differently and I asked you if you actually thought that PAG would make two versions of 7MT, one for those with 'Sport Chrono' and the other for those who don't order that option. Because it's clear that it will only do the 'auto double-clutching' on Sport Plus, which is a 'Sport Chrono' dependent feature! It seems to me that it's a software enhancement to 'Sport Chrono' in conjunction with 7MT, but that is only a guess.
Can you shed more technical light on this subject?
Saludos,
Eduardo
You stated previously that you think that the 'sport chrono version of the 7MT is going to have double wet clutches like a PDK'. Chris in Ca thinks differently and I asked you if you actually thought that PAG would make two versions of 7MT, one for those with 'Sport Chrono' and the other for those who don't order that option. Because it's clear that it will only do the 'auto double-clutching' on Sport Plus, which is a 'Sport Chrono' dependent feature! It seems to me that it's a software enhancement to 'Sport Chrono' in conjunction with 7MT, but that is only a guess.
Can you shed more technical light on this subject?
Saludos,
Eduardo
This looks like a slightly misleading translation of the original press release...
For example, in the German press articles on the 991 Carrera 4 they make reference to...
"7-Gang Schaltgetriebe + Zwischengasfunktion (nur mit Sport Chrono Paket)" = "7-speed manual + declutching function (only with Sport Chrono Package)"
...where "Zwischengasfunktion" refers to the point of discussion...
...which is apparently the same word ("Zwischengasfunktion") that Porsche also use to describe the "throttle-blip" function for the 2012 Porsche 911 GT3 R race-car!
- Saugmotor
- Wassergekühlter Sechszylinder-Boxermotor mit 4 Ventiltechnik
- Hubraum: 3.996 cm³
- Hub: 80,4 mm
- Bohrung: 102,7 mm
- Motorleistung: 368 kW (500 PS)
- Kraftstoffqualität: Superplus bleifrei, 98 ROZ
- Trockensumpfschmierung
- Multi-Point-Kraftstoffeinspritzung (sequentiell)
- Elektronisches Motormanagement MS 4.0 von Bosch
- E - Gas mit Zwischengasfunktion
- Rennabgasanlage mit Vor- und Endschalldämpfer
- Endschalldämpfer mit doppelten Endrohren mittiger Anordnung
So that does sound like the new 991 Carrera 4S offers an optional "throttle-blip" function for the 7-speed manual transmission...
08-27-2012, 05:35 PM
#111
Back on topic, the Porsche announcement this morning included this "In Sport Plus mode, the system automatically double-declutches during downshifts."
You stated previously that you think that the 'sport chrono version of the 7MT is going to have double wet clutches like a PDK'. Chris in Ca thinks differently and I asked you if you actually thought that PAG would make two versions of 7MT, one for those with 'Sport Chrono' and the other for those who don't order that option. Because it's clear that it will only do the 'auto double-clutching' on Sport Plus, which is a 'Sport Chrono' dependent feature! It seems to me that it's a software enhancement to 'Sport Chrono' in conjunction with 7MT, but that is only a guess.
Can you shed more technical light on this subject?
Saludos,
Eduardo
You stated previously that you think that the 'sport chrono version of the 7MT is going to have double wet clutches like a PDK'. Chris in Ca thinks differently and I asked you if you actually thought that PAG would make two versions of 7MT, one for those with 'Sport Chrono' and the other for those who don't order that option. Because it's clear that it will only do the 'auto double-clutching' on Sport Plus, which is a 'Sport Chrono' dependent feature! It seems to me that it's a software enhancement to 'Sport Chrono' in conjunction with 7MT, but that is only a guess.
Can you shed more technical light on this subject?
Saludos,
Eduardo
This looks like a slightly misleading translation of the original press release...
For example, in the German press articles on the 991 Carrera 4 they make reference to...
"7-Gang Schaltgetriebe + Zwischengasfunktion (nur mit Sport Chrono Paket)" = "7-speed manual + declutching function (only with Sport Chrono Package)"
...where "Zwischengasfunktion" refers to the point of discussion...
...which is apparently the same word ("Zwischengasfunktion") that Porsche also use to describe the "throttle-blip" function for the 2012 Porsche 911 GT3 R race-car!
- Saugmotor
- Wassergekühlter Sechszylinder-Boxermotor mit 4 Ventiltechnik
- Hubraum: 3.996 cm³
- Hub: 80,4 mm
- Bohrung: 102,7 mm
- Motorleistung: 368 kW (500 PS)
- Kraftstoffqualität: Superplus bleifrei, 98 ROZ
- Trockensumpfschmierung
- Multi-Point-Kraftstoffeinspritzung (sequentiell)
- Elektronisches Motormanagement MS 4.0 von Bosch
- E - Gas mit Zwischengasfunktion
- Rennabgasanlage mit Vor- und Endschalldämpfer
- Endschalldämpfer mit doppelten Endrohren mittiger Anordnung
So that does sound like the new 991 Carrera 4S offers an optional "throttle-blip" function for the 7-speed manual transmission...
08-27-2012, 05:38 PM
#112
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That's it , I was looking for the German text. "Lost in translation" is very common with these presentations.
Now let's see if you can turn it off when you like.
If you can , it's a welcome addition IMO.
Now let's see if you can turn it off when you like.
If you can , it's a welcome addition IMO.
08-27-2012, 05:43 PM
#114
Rennlist Member
I guess they may offer a defeat option ala the 7.2 PSM controls, my guess is that it will probably be 'always on' in conjunction with sport+ mode...
08-27-2012, 05:51 PM
#116
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Not good if that's the case.
Perhaps the next GT cars, which will hopefully come with a proper manual, have a separate switch for it. Even Nissan offers it for their "synchrorev" version.
08-27-2012, 06:44 PM
#118
[QUOTE=Boxster Coupe GTS;9796975]
"7-Gang Schaltgetriebe + Zwischengasfunktion (nur mit Sport Chrono Paket)" = "7-speed manual + declutching function (only with Sport Chrono Package)"
"Zwischengas" in German DOES NOT translate to "declutching", it means literally "in-between Gas" which is close to "throttle-blip" in English. Declutching would be "doppelkuppeln" in German, which you would do with an older transmission like that in my '86 Carrera PLUS a blip (Zwischengas) while in neutral...
[QUOTE=Boxster Coupe GTS;9796971]
"7-Gang Schaltgetriebe + Zwischengasfunktion (nur mit Sport Chrono Paket)" = "7-speed manual + declutching function (only with Sport Chrono Package)"
"Zwischengas" in German DOES NOT translate to "declutching", it means literally "in-between Gas" which is close to "throttle-blip" in English. Declutching would be "doppelkuppeln" in German, which you would do with an older transmission like that in my '86 Carrera PLUS a blip (Zwischengas) while in neutral...
[QUOTE=Boxster Coupe GTS;9796971]
08-27-2012, 08:02 PM
#119
Nordschleife Master
Only if you mean as a stand-alone. It's available on the base and standard on the S with PTV......
PTV in conjunction with the manual gearbox, or PTV Plus with Porsche Doppelkupplung (PDK), are available as options for the 911 Carrera models and standard in the 911 Carrera S models. Both systems actively enhance vehicle dynamics and stability. Operating in conjunction with a mechanical (PTV) or electronic (PTV Plus) rear differential lock, they work by braking the rear wheels as the situation demands.
Porsche Torque Vectoring (PTV)
Variable torque distribution through conrolled braking on the rear wheels. Includes mechanically controlled differential lock with asymmetrical locking action (22% in traction, 27% in overrun) for increased agility, steering precision, traction, and vehicle stability
PTV in conjunction with the manual gearbox, or PTV Plus with Porsche Doppelkupplung (PDK), are available as options for the 911 Carrera models and standard in the 911 Carrera S models. Both systems actively enhance vehicle dynamics and stability. Operating in conjunction with a mechanical (PTV) or electronic (PTV Plus) rear differential lock, they work by braking the rear wheels as the situation demands.
Porsche Torque Vectoring (PTV)
Variable torque distribution through conrolled braking on the rear wheels. Includes mechanically controlled differential lock with asymmetrical locking action (22% in traction, 27% in overrun) for increased agility, steering precision, traction, and vehicle stability
http://www.porsche.com/microsite/tec...lectedVariant=
Brakes, not a mechanical LSD. There's a significant difference there.
08-27-2012, 08:16 PM
#120
Nordschleife Master
You stated previously that you think that the 'sport chrono version of the 7MT is going to have double wet clutches like a PDK'. Chris in Ca thinks differently and I asked you if you actually thought that PAG would make two versions of 7MT, one for those with 'Sport Chrono' and the other for those who don't order that option. Because it's clear that it will only do the 'auto double-clutching' on Sport Plus, which is a 'Sport Chrono' dependent feature! It seems to me that it's a software enhancement to 'Sport Chrono' in conjunction with 7MT, but that is only a guess.
Can you shed more technical light on this subject?
Saludos,
Eduardo
Can you shed more technical light on this subject?
Saludos,
Eduardo
However, for the sake of academics I will continue this discussion. I just wish we still had acces to Slow911's show and tell documents about how the new 7MT works and what Porsche had to do to make a PDK based single clutch gearbox work in a traditional H-pattern. It would make it all a lot easier.
Many of the racing sequential gearboxes still have a clutch pedal, even though most of the time it isn't used. Porsche could very easliy put a clutch pedal into a car that had a PDK (a double clutch) gearbox in place. They could also use some variant of their crazy over-engineered H-pattern shifting "box" (for lack of a better technical term) along with electronics to make all of this happen. It wouldn't be the first time Porsche overengineered the hell out of something. The 928 and 959 come to mind. So, no, I don't think Porsche would design yet a 3rd gearbox to offer something like this. But I wouldn't put it past them to put a PDK in what is advertised as a "manual" gearbox and with smoke and mirrors fool the general public. As you can see from my last post, they've already done that with "differentials"
What they've done with "differentials" is no different than a modern hitech electronically controlled version of how we use to get our Beetles back on the road after we drove them too far out into the sand at the beach. We'd pulll the parking brake halfway and make a "braking differential" and drive back onto the pavement.
As we've seen it's all in the marketing. What they are spinning in English as "double declutching" isn't really that at all when you go look at the German explanation of it.
