seriously: 2009 Scuderia vs. 4.0
02-20-2012, 09:49 PM
#61
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
so, I guess it's the 4.0. I will mainly use this for the track. Now to find a white 4.0 low option RS. It's too bad the downtown LA car has the lightweight headlights. I must have xenons. I have night blindness and can't see at night. 
02-20-2012, 09:51 PM
#62
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Wait- none of these "fixes" are Porsche approved. They are not time tested yet either. And not covered under warranty and may void it. I have more years with Porsche than Ferrari, but the things I've asked Ferrari to address on a car that is out of warranty have thus far been covered.
02-20-2012, 09:59 PM
#63
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hold on a second! Come-on!! Rad has not been able to complete a Sebring event to date without any issues, and he signs up 1 or 2 days never 3 or 4 days.
For the track a Porsche GT3RS is a vastly superior and reliable car. The Scuderia is a fun and fast car, but $20,000 for rotors and $2,000 for brake pads that don't seem to last, it is an expensive car to maintain.
When I come to the track, I hate, hate to waste my time fixing a car!!!
Plus secretly Rad really dreams about having an RS 4.0 that has less rubber in its suspension than the Scuderia.
For the track a Porsche GT3RS is a vastly superior and reliable car. The Scuderia is a fun and fast car, but $20,000 for rotors and $2,000 for brake pads that don't seem to last, it is an expensive car to maintain.
When I come to the track, I hate, hate to waste my time fixing a car!!!
Plus secretly Rad really dreams about having an RS 4.0 that has less rubber in its suspension than the Scuderia.
02-20-2012, 10:02 PM
#64
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02-20-2012, 10:11 PM
#66
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Not absolutely certain, but would be worth checking with Suncoast:
http://www.suncoastparts.com/product...de=gt2rslights
http://www.suncoastparts.com/product...de=gt2rslights
02-20-2012, 10:14 PM
#67
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my night vision is so bad, that deers around my house know and get the hell out of my way !
good luck at finding a RS to fit your need. they are great machines.
02-20-2012, 10:51 PM
#68
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hold on a second! Come-on!! Rad has not been able to complete a Sebring event to date without any issues, and he signs up 1 or 2 days never 3 or 4 days.
For the track a Porsche GT3RS is a vastly superior and reliable car. The Scuderia is a fun and fast car, but $20,000 for rotors and $2,000 for brake pads that don't seem to last, it is an expensive car to maintain.
When I come to the track, I hate, hate to waste my time fixing a car!!!
Plus secretly Rad really dreams about having an RS 4.0 that has less rubber in its suspension than the Scuderia.
For the track a Porsche GT3RS is a vastly superior and reliable car. The Scuderia is a fun and fast car, but $20,000 for rotors and $2,000 for brake pads that don't seem to last, it is an expensive car to maintain.
When I come to the track, I hate, hate to waste my time fixing a car!!!
Plus secretly Rad really dreams about having an RS 4.0 that has less rubber in its suspension than the Scuderia.
Cure the brakes problem, and immediately the GT3 (any flavor) becomes a more expensive car to track.
The Scuderia has axles about 50% thicker than GT3 axles, no coolant fittings failing, long lasting clutch, long lasting and reliable LSD, no need to replace the LSD. Gear ratios are shorter than 3.8RS and 4.0RS, no need to re-gear the transmission. I can align my Scuderia in 30 minutes, it takes me 3 hours to align a GT3 due to the annoying eccentric bolts on the rear axle, and how difficult is to access them and get them torque properly. The F1 transmission has the benefit to save the engine and transmission from over-revs, and plenty of GT3 have suffered light or heavy damage due to miss shifts.
The Scuderia uses double wishbones at each corner, it doesn't suffer from the excessive dynamic toe changes the GT3 puts on the rear axle. There is less flexing on the Scuderia suspension, because it bolts straight to the chassis, no subframe like the GT3/Cayman/Boxster.
The F430 and 360 Challenge have Delrin bushings, I installed these pieces 3 years ago, to remove all the rubber bushings from the suspension, easy fix, and long lasting. A machine shop in Texas makes replacement bushings for $25 each, I have bags of them thinking they needed replacement every year, but so far I'm running on the original Delrin bushings, except 4 that came out of spec from new (the complete kit is 16 bushings).
I haven't replaced $20k rotors, and I'm not going to, because the CCB rotors in the Scuderia are just silly overpriced, and inferior in quality to the PCCB. Let's clarify that the CCB rotors in the Scuderia are the same units (construction and manufacturer) used in the Aston Martin, Mercedes, Audi, Lamborghini, ZR1, Z06, Bentley, so all of these other cars CCB plain suck.
When considering a Scuderia for track use, the CCB must be replaced with steel rotors, they are available already, but they reuse the stock calipers and brake pads. Brake pads for the stock calipers are only available from Fiat (street or track version) and three other companies, but at a cost of near $2,000 a set (still cheaper than $4,000 a set for OEM pads). Therefore, switching to steel rotors while still using the same shape for the stock pads is not a full solution. The solution is new brake calipers, new steel brake rotors, and new pads on a shape available from many other manufacturers. I haven't had the time to research enough, but there is a possibility to adapt the GT3 RS front and rear calipers (using the same pads) then using a custom made steel rotor with a new bell, but once again another R&D project.
I would not replace the Scuderia with a 4.0RS, but I would replace the boring Cayman with a GT3 of any type.
The engine in the Scuderia runs at much colder temperatures, there is better cooling.
Simply upgrading the brake system, makes the Scuderia a fine track day car. It already is a fine and reliable street car. The cost of the brakes upgrade can be reduced by the used price of the Scuderia CCB brakes, something that plenty of folks with F430, 360 Modena are willing to pay for to replace the even worse stock steel brakes in these two cars.
Nobody seems to mention the multiple engine failures happening on the 3.8RS, or the oil leaks from the RMS, crankcase porosity, bend drop links, broken sway bar support, broken axles, ABS ice mode (nonexistent on Scuderia, because it uses the F430 Challenge ABS module), stripped treads on rear uprights, cracked mufflers, worn eccentric bolt treads not holding alignment, among other issues that seem common on tracked GT cars, so they are hardly reliable. GT3 is fun, reliable, not so much.
Recently, Fiat retired the Scuderias being used on the FDE driving schools, they were used as permanent track cars, with mileage in the 7,000 - 10,000 miles range. All the miles driven on these Scuderias were track miles, easily over 120 track hours. Fiat put brand new CCB rotors and brake pads, and sent the cars to dealers to be sold as certified pre-owned cars. Another proof of reliability on this specific Fiat model.
The reliability of the Scuderia is just the consequence of the F430 Challenge, F430 GT3, F430 GT2, during years of racing, and applying the lessons learned to the last generation of this street car.
02-20-2012, 10:53 PM
#69
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02-21-2012, 02:39 AM
#70
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i used to track with a guy who tracked a 7.1rs and a scud. he'd bring one or the other to each day, and i remember him clearly cursing all the time, about ''this bloody fiat........'' he liked the rs much better. then he went and bought a cup.
02-21-2012, 04:05 AM
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Only issues I had experience in 3 years, brakes overheating, and in some cases replacing a set of brake pads per day, lots of unnecessary wrenching due to an inferior brake system design given the Scuderia capabilities in every other area.
Cure the brakes problem, and immediately the GT3 (any flavor) becomes a more expensive car to track.
The Scuderia has axles about 50% thicker than GT3 axles, no coolant fittings failing, long lasting clutch, long lasting and reliable LSD, no need to replace the LSD. Gear ratios are shorter than 3.8RS and 4.0RS, no need to re-gear the transmission. I can align my Scuderia in 30 minutes, it takes me 3 hours to align a GT3 due to the annoying eccentric bolts on the rear axle, and how difficult is to access them and get them torque properly. The F1 transmission has the benefit to save the engine and transmission from over-revs, and plenty of GT3 have suffered light or heavy damage due to miss shifts.
The Scuderia uses double wishbones at each corner, it doesn't suffer from the excessive dynamic toe changes the GT3 puts on the rear axle. There is less flexing on the Scuderia suspension, because it bolts straight to the chassis, no subframe like the GT3/Cayman/Boxster.
The F430 and 360 Challenge have Delrin bushings, I installed these pieces 3 years ago, to remove all the rubber bushings from the suspension, easy fix, and long lasting. A machine shop in Texas makes replacement bushings for $25 each, I have bags of them thinking they needed replacement every year, but so far I'm running on the original Delrin bushings, except 4 that came out of spec from new (the complete kit is 16 bushings).
I haven't replaced $20k rotors, and I'm not going to, because the CCB rotors in the Scuderia are just silly overpriced, and inferior in quality to the PCCB. Let's clarify that the CCB rotors in the Scuderia are the same units (construction and manufacturer) used in the Aston Martin, Mercedes, Audi, Lamborghini, ZR1, Z06, Bentley, so all of these other cars CCB plain suck.
When considering a Scuderia for track use, the CCB must be replaced with steel rotors, they are available already, but they reuse the stock calipers and brake pads. Brake pads for the stock calipers are only available from Fiat (street or track version) and three other companies, but at a cost of near $2,000 a set (still cheaper than $4,000 a set for OEM pads). Therefore, switching to steel rotors while still using the same shape for the stock pads is not a full solution. The solution is new brake calipers, new steel brake rotors, and new pads on a shape available from many other manufacturers. I haven't had the time to research enough, but there is a possibility to adapt the GT3 RS front and rear calipers (using the same pads) then using a custom made steel rotor with a new bell, but once again another R&D project.
I would not replace the Scuderia with a 4.0RS, but I would replace the boring Cayman with a GT3 of any type.
The engine in the Scuderia runs at much colder temperatures, there is better cooling.
Simply upgrading the brake system, makes the Scuderia a fine track day car. It already is a fine and reliable street car. The cost of the brakes upgrade can be reduced by the used price of the Scuderia CCB brakes, something that plenty of folks with F430, 360 Modena are willing to pay for to replace the even worse stock steel brakes in these two cars.
Nobody seems to mention the multiple engine failures happening on the 3.8RS, or the oil leaks from the RMS, crankcase porosity, bend drop links, broken sway bar support, broken axles, ABS ice mode (nonexistent on Scuderia, because it uses the F430 Challenge ABS module), stripped treads on rear uprights, cracked mufflers, worn eccentric bolt treads not holding alignment, among other issues that seem common on tracked GT cars, so they are hardly reliable. GT3 is fun, reliable, not so much.
Recently, Fiat retired the Scuderias being used on the FDE driving schools, they were used as permanent track cars, with mileage in the 7,000 - 10,000 miles range. All the miles driven on these Scuderias were track miles, easily over 120 track hours. Fiat put brand new CCB rotors and brake pads, and sent the cars to dealers to be sold as certified pre-owned cars. Another proof of reliability on this specific Fiat model.
The reliability of the Scuderia is just the consequence of the F430 Challenge, F430 GT3, F430 GT2, during years of racing, and applying the lessons learned to the last generation of this street car.
Cure the brakes problem, and immediately the GT3 (any flavor) becomes a more expensive car to track.
The Scuderia has axles about 50% thicker than GT3 axles, no coolant fittings failing, long lasting clutch, long lasting and reliable LSD, no need to replace the LSD. Gear ratios are shorter than 3.8RS and 4.0RS, no need to re-gear the transmission. I can align my Scuderia in 30 minutes, it takes me 3 hours to align a GT3 due to the annoying eccentric bolts on the rear axle, and how difficult is to access them and get them torque properly. The F1 transmission has the benefit to save the engine and transmission from over-revs, and plenty of GT3 have suffered light or heavy damage due to miss shifts.
The Scuderia uses double wishbones at each corner, it doesn't suffer from the excessive dynamic toe changes the GT3 puts on the rear axle. There is less flexing on the Scuderia suspension, because it bolts straight to the chassis, no subframe like the GT3/Cayman/Boxster.
The F430 and 360 Challenge have Delrin bushings, I installed these pieces 3 years ago, to remove all the rubber bushings from the suspension, easy fix, and long lasting. A machine shop in Texas makes replacement bushings for $25 each, I have bags of them thinking they needed replacement every year, but so far I'm running on the original Delrin bushings, except 4 that came out of spec from new (the complete kit is 16 bushings).
I haven't replaced $20k rotors, and I'm not going to, because the CCB rotors in the Scuderia are just silly overpriced, and inferior in quality to the PCCB. Let's clarify that the CCB rotors in the Scuderia are the same units (construction and manufacturer) used in the Aston Martin, Mercedes, Audi, Lamborghini, ZR1, Z06, Bentley, so all of these other cars CCB plain suck.
When considering a Scuderia for track use, the CCB must be replaced with steel rotors, they are available already, but they reuse the stock calipers and brake pads. Brake pads for the stock calipers are only available from Fiat (street or track version) and three other companies, but at a cost of near $2,000 a set (still cheaper than $4,000 a set for OEM pads). Therefore, switching to steel rotors while still using the same shape for the stock pads is not a full solution. The solution is new brake calipers, new steel brake rotors, and new pads on a shape available from many other manufacturers. I haven't had the time to research enough, but there is a possibility to adapt the GT3 RS front and rear calipers (using the same pads) then using a custom made steel rotor with a new bell, but once again another R&D project.
I would not replace the Scuderia with a 4.0RS, but I would replace the boring Cayman with a GT3 of any type.
The engine in the Scuderia runs at much colder temperatures, there is better cooling.
Simply upgrading the brake system, makes the Scuderia a fine track day car. It already is a fine and reliable street car. The cost of the brakes upgrade can be reduced by the used price of the Scuderia CCB brakes, something that plenty of folks with F430, 360 Modena are willing to pay for to replace the even worse stock steel brakes in these two cars.
Nobody seems to mention the multiple engine failures happening on the 3.8RS, or the oil leaks from the RMS, crankcase porosity, bend drop links, broken sway bar support, broken axles, ABS ice mode (nonexistent on Scuderia, because it uses the F430 Challenge ABS module), stripped treads on rear uprights, cracked mufflers, worn eccentric bolt treads not holding alignment, among other issues that seem common on tracked GT cars, so they are hardly reliable. GT3 is fun, reliable, not so much.
Recently, Fiat retired the Scuderias being used on the FDE driving schools, they were used as permanent track cars, with mileage in the 7,000 - 10,000 miles range. All the miles driven on these Scuderias were track miles, easily over 120 track hours. Fiat put brand new CCB rotors and brake pads, and sent the cars to dealers to be sold as certified pre-owned cars. Another proof of reliability on this specific Fiat model.
The reliability of the Scuderia is just the consequence of the F430 Challenge, F430 GT3, F430 GT2, during years of racing, and applying the lessons learned to the last generation of this street car.
I would be sorely disappointed if someone from Rennlist of all places couldn't break down this post and reply with a pro-GT3 response. VW v. Fiat.
Someone pls take the p-torch and entertain us.
02-21-2012, 09:01 AM
#72
i'd take the 4.0. i feel that car will be a collectible. i have a feeling they won't be making cars like that anymore (analog and mechanical) coupled with the last Mezger engine and 6 speed manual make for a more visceral and connected feeling.
if you really want a ferrari, i'd sell the RS3.8 and get a regular 430. that combo would probably net the same price as keeping the RS 3.8 and buying a Scud. goodluck. but in all seriousness, i'd rather get an SLS than a 430 -granted you have the RS 4.0 already.
if you really want a ferrari, i'd sell the RS3.8 and get a regular 430. that combo would probably net the same price as keeping the RS 3.8 and buying a Scud. goodluck. but in all seriousness, i'd rather get an SLS than a 430 -granted you have the RS 4.0 already.
02-21-2012, 09:09 AM
#73
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the engine block in the scud has never won le mans outright.
02-21-2012, 09:25 AM
#74
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i used to track with a guy who tracked a 7.1rs and a scud. he'd bring one or the other to each day, and i remember him clearly cursing all the time, about ''this bloody fiat........'' he liked the rs much better. then he went and bought a cup. The engine block in the scud has never won le mans outright.