TB993tt

A familiar story Mo ...
I guess "Autobahn tuning" vs "1/4 mile tuning" although to be fair to EVOMS they can hold it all together for a full mile which is certainly impressive - I would just like to see some full load Durametric data from an "800hp VTG car" so I can benchmark where I am up to in terms of IATs, kg/hr, boost etc but it seems that there is no one logging this sort of information.....

pete95zhn

Now please educate a n00b. I just recently realized that 996/997 turbo's OEM map sensor maxes at 2550 hPa. (=1.5 bar boost, not 2.5 bar) Many high-hp cars' datalogs show a long line of 2550...how in h*** is the incoming air measured if both MAF and MAP are maxed out??

Or do they (=tuners) just rely on A/FR from dyno runs and top end of maps is based on them?

Why then 997 turbo's VGT table reaches out to 3500 hPa if there's no way to measure actual pressure above 2550 hPa?

What have I missed?

TTurbine

Because in the scenario you described the atmospheric pressure is actually 1000-1050 hpa in most conditions whatever above atmosperic hpa is considered boost which in this case is 2550 hpa = 1.55 bar.

Would be interesting to see a GT2RS datalog as it maxes out at 1.6bar with the diffrent siemens DME

Hope i answered your question

TB993tt

Following advice from my man Phil at Tech 9 Motorsport in the UK I bought a set of Endless pads.
These are made for Porsche ceramic discs and are supposed to have magical properties, low dust, no noise, very low wear for both pads and discs and of course awesome stopping.

These are supposed to be the street version which in Europe is called LF3 compound. Unfortunately the Euro distributor also likes to make a LOT of money, the full set is near £2000 ($3000 US)
Vivid sourced me a set of W0008 compound which they assure me is the same as the LF3 for a fair chunk less - they will be fitted tomorrow

TTurbine

Sounds good , Manthey also recommend Endless pads.., Would be nice to see what you think about them VS Oem on your vmax runs

Rickard 993 Turbo

Do they have a Motorsport version for pccb..

TB993tt

Mo, thanks for the info about Manthey, I didn't know that, it is an excellent reference for these crazily expensive items !

Pads went on today and initial reactions is that they have lots of feel and zero noise.




This appears to be the track version:


Web site is here but the links to individual pads don't seem to work ?

http://www.endless-brake.info/ceramic-compounds

The USA web site doesn't feature the Ceramic pads but has an interesting pictorial on the manufacturing process, they are almost hand made !

http://www.endlessusa.com/#!__brake-pads/factory-page-1

Nick Wong

FYI Toby I have signed up for a Sebring event end March so I should be able to get some data then. Preliminary data suggests no problems with AIT even on extended pulls, nothing over 40C. For boost control my car and the yellow GT2 use a 3 bar sensor with the ECU control scaled accordingly, and I have more info on the VTG/diverter issue but it doesn't belong on a public board.

I also use Endless pads- ME20. I was looking into using the W0008 also but have no experience with them. FYI also have braided lines and SRF fluid.

TB993tt

Nick, will be great if you manage to share some logged data.

What speeds are "extended pulls" up to and in what ambient ? I hit 40deC in 18 DegC ambient at about 240kph but a lot depends how hot the motor is just before the logging starts.....

Great to hear I am in good company with the Endless

Nick Wong

85F, 80%+ relative humidity, near 0ft sea level. 160+mph from what I understand, and under 40C. On dyno with 40mph fans, IAT is under 37C. Higher actual speeds equate to higher negative pressure behind the rear bumper, so far more potential flow...

TB993tt

85degF so 29degC and you are only at 11degC above at loaded acceleration up to 160mph / ~260Kph ?

I really have to see that data: rpm, mph, boost, IAT,EGT ,kg/hr......... from all the data I have that seems pretty much impossible with 700VTG hp, look forward to learning and showing zee Germans what is possible

Nick Wong

Well, it's really all about the intercooler core. Can't use those monster ones that some shops like to sell, just have to use extremely efficient ones. In addition, there are other tricks that they used such as their VTG billet compressor housings and billet wheels that lower IAT. Your IAT problem suggests heat soak everywhere.

I'm sure there is some thought behind the process- after all the guy who put my car together also won pretty much at every level in the US and abroad in sportscars as head engineer of said programs.

FYI on the dyno (speed limited to 160mph for dynojet logging) although the dyno is limited, the external data logging is not, so they go beyond that for logging and tuning.

You should just have RS Tuning contact Louis Milone at Champion Motorsport. I think they do know one another in some capacity.

TB993tt

Nuff talk....show me zee data

TB993tt

Reflecting on Champion telling Nick that in 29DegC ambient they see maximum 40DegC IAT after "prolonged pulls" and him making his statements above (which are perfectly reasonable if this statement from Champion is true) I really cannot believe what Champion are telling him or at least their methodology in testing the IATs is not the same as what I use.

To start with the engine has to be hot, after a few blasts up to 200mph on a 22DegC day then leaving the car idling the IAT in my car is at 35DegC, it can be clearly seen in the data trace below. So my IATs are already at 13DegC above ambient before a testing run is undertaken. Presumably in 29DegC ambient (as in Champion's numbers) I would be at least at 42DegC IAT before I've started !!



So part of the same data run as above here is the clip running 200kph to 229kph note how the IAT is still only at 42DegC at 200kph (that's 124mph) despite its 35DegC starting point so its only gone up 7degC up to this point.

Notice the boost bewteen 1.4 and 1.5 bar which gives acceleration able to make the car go 200 - 229kph in ~3.2s and the IAT whizzes up to 51degC in this 3.2s



Now the final bit of the run, the program has been altering the boost which will affect the rate of climb of the IAT so it levels out at 65DegC at 334kph (207mph) so a whopping 30degC over the starting temp. In 29degC I suspect the program would contain the IAT to under 70degC but would pull plenty of boost so the acceleration would not be there.

So getting back to the data and what I am looking for so I can verify what Nick says about the Champion engine having superior intercooling etc is:

Time column/speed column

To be read in conjunction with speed column to verify what the acceleration rate is so we can quantfy approximately how much power/performance is being generated - if the acceleration is only that of a 600hp engine then of course there will be a lot less heat to control.

Mass air flow

This shows how much air the engine is taking in (not sure of the accuracy of this reading, some have questioned whether it is truly representative ?)

Exhaust temp

Of interest to see how hot the VTGs are getting, probably tells us a bit about back pressure ?

Ignition angle

A nice steady set of numbers shows a well controlled engine and higher numbers probably better ?

Lambdas

Showing how rich/lean the motor is running

Boost pressure

Again higher boost means hotter air for the system to contend with, if the boost is lower but the performance (acceleration) is there then that is a more efficient engine.



Finally a clip from an acceleration run in 14 degC on a better surface than Bruntingthorpe airfield. A performance box trace is always needed to verify acceleration data making sure that there is no 6speedesque slope involved to affect the numbers.

There is wheel spin at 280kph in 6th during this run which affects the acceleration numbers, without this the 0-300kph looks to be around 22s which is a solid 730hp on a 1450kg 0.71CdA RWD997

Nick Wong

One more thing to verify with your RS Tuning guys- what is the rpm of the turbos under peak boost? I guarantee your turbine peak rpm is significantly higher than mine which contributes to much higher IATS.