TB993tt

Probably should have stopped here TBH.

Nick you have dished out your fair share of condescending replies although you may have felt goaded but from your last post I don't think this thread is for you, please don't judge us (me) as ego centric - just trying to learn and experience has shown me how to in this subject (and it generally involves not believing tuners) and it may surprise you that there are quite a few of us who do share data and discuss it freely warts and all.....

It also may interest you that in Germany even the best engine builders (like RS Tuning) have customers who pay to have their newly built and tuned engines removed from their cars and power tested on one of the Porsche certified engine dynos at Weissach to confirm they got what they paid for - this is a big enough "issue" for RST to actually take a freshly tested engine from their facility in the back of a van to Weissach for a test to confirm the calibration on their engine dyno matches Weissach's - sort of puts the old Dynojet into perspective

Jean

Exactly. You need to Relax and stop being emotional and condescending to others ..it's only cars. Spare us all your nationalistic nonsense, many of us here have spent over the past 15 years tenfold the amounts that you have with respectable US Tuners who stand behind their claims and products in all transparency. BTW...Beirut is not Europe, try Google Earth.

You're making statements about data and then get all defensive when you are being asked to show it.

tripleblack

Nick Wong

And that is why I don't bother sharing any data.

Thanks for reminding me, the internet forum culture is pretty much exactly what I remember it being 10 years ago. So long!

Larry Cable

jeez ... ... I see its not just your engines you guys apply"boost" too...

911SLOW

It's your prerogative not to share information but, by and large, I think you are being unfair in your criticism ..

Nick Wong

Hey Slow- I agree, my words came across a bit harsh, but apparently reason is beyond some of those with semi moronic pack mentality.

In the end it doesn't matter- they will think what they want, and I couldn't care less. I'd much rather talk about track events, races, etc. than stay on this thread of insanity.

Jean

FWIW, on my 100% stock 997GT2 and 2-3 high speed runs in a row, on my durametric I hit between 45C and 50C at 240kph with ~25C ambient temps. That's a differential of 20-25C vs. ambient

Red9

Nick -- you need to stop taking it personally. Apologies to TB and Jean(again) --I know they dont need my endorsement-- but-- we all have so much to thank these guys for. Not alone-- but certainly leading many discussions on the reality of HP numbers and real world performance has seen many promoters come back to earth with their claims for everything from engine HP(& torque) numbers to all sorts of critical areas( eg intercoolers) .
That said-- it has led to real comparative performance numbers( not perfect-- but way better than previously) for all to see.Only yesterday I was catching up on thread in 993 section -- where promoter of product finally conceded his claimed dyno numbers were represented as 12% too high-- all by the data he supplied by himself.That was a result of over a years discussion and the conclusion crucial to all our knowledge.Many other interesting points were discussed there-- and in my view --everyone learnt at least something!!
This thread is typical discussion -- and it does need guys with some expertise--or access to expertise-- to contribute. Both Jean and TB( apologies to all other very knowledgeable contributors) have SO much great info to contribute-- and have shared so much over the years--- and a desire to learn more-- and in that process we are all winners.
I am trying to be brief here!!-- but there are so ,many side aspects-- was it Champion that made claims on Intercoolers with flawed data? and then stopped discussing?
Lastly-- I am neither in the US or Europe( nor Middle East!!)-- no one has a mortgage on being a clever or knowledgable engineer-- it truly is global these days. In reality the Porsche factory takes considerable feedback from North America-- especially on race issues -- so pulling the idea that the concept of criticism is aimed in that US direction is doing the questioners a disservice. If you look at the history-- ridiculous and dubious claims from everywhere have been questioned-- and exposed.
For that-- we all owe a debt of gratitude.

TTurbine

You said it Nick, you need to stop taking it personally. You quoted data on your previous post that evreyone with a tuned 700+ VTG/Turbo engine dreams of TBH and we just wanted to see data on what Champion managed that what 99.9% Porsche tuners havent..

This thread and Rennlist is all about real data and first hand experiances , i have learnet alot on how our engines behave due to this thread.

If you dont want to share data then please don't

At the end it's only cars... and no one should take it personally

GT

https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

earl3

Here is a log from a 68mm VTG CMS car, the only one I've ever been able to find. Its got the airflow, but note the time under load. The was a 4th gear pull on a (dun-dah-daaaaaaa) Mustang dyno.

TB993tt

Earl
Thanks for digging this out.

Points of interest I can see

2.6s of lag from 2500rpm when throttle is 100% to full boost (when received boost matches requested boost) at 3600rpm

Big kg/hr indicates big power, most I have seen is 1980kg/hr on 734PS engine.

With 5s of unkown load IAT goes up 6c

On the surface this looks promising. the unknown is the loading on the Mustang, it is enough to get the 1.5bar boost but isit the same as a road loading in 4th gear ? this will effect the IATs and also that very laggy (VTG) 2.6s delay in boost onset, more loading should bring the boost on quicker ?

GT

This looks like a bit too laggy.. I like the lambda (.8x is nice and lean) and ignition timing .

TB993tt

From the available data it does seem that we are limited to around 700PS at the flywheel when using VTG turbos, the hot/clever side is at its limits when made to flow the mass of air required for this much power.

please remember this is Porsche hp, ie hp available at maximum speed when the engine is at maximum power held at full load in DIN conditions, as opposed to hp measured on a chassis dyno for a fourth speed gear run or for the equivalent 60-130mph run through third and fourth gear - for these low load "drag" type application I'm certain higher hp can be achieved....

It seems likely that Porsche/BW will not be producing a bigger hot side VTG mechanism for tuners to get their teeth into so this seems it for now.

Ruf kept the 996 turbo engine to use in the 997s and he uses some sort of hybrid ECU system (he shunned VTGs fairly early on due to the IAT and tuning issues)


At RS Tuning it seems they are moving in this direction and away from the VTG..

Following the success of the 3.9 engine they built which powered the world record breaking Alzen/H&R 400kph 997 with 1050PS they were surprised at how durable that engine was. It was expected to be "lifed" for a number of hours but in reality (when it was checked before the final 1050PS iteration was was finalised having run many ~390kph laps in 980PS form) it did not wear as they had estimated it would giving impetus to a build of higher hp street motors based on this "garbage in" build......

So it seems that with the latest design of BW/KKK conventional turbo with special compressor wheel fitted to the 3.9 higher compression RS "built" engine they will go to 1000NM at 3200rpm and 870PS at under 1.3 bar on 98RON fuel.
This is not a reality yet as the problem which needs solving is running an ECU controlled boost function (to control normal wastegates not VTG) which will work with the 997 electronics, apparently without everything "talking" basic stuff like the dashboard instruments won't even work !

I personally will be staying with VTG as I don't quite believe that the response and torque from a conventional turbo can be as good (but hopefully will get to test one at some stage in the future) but also IMO the 997GT2 with a VTG responsive 900NM/700PS is at a level which is at the limits of the car, certailnly for driving on lumpy, cambered roads and in varying weather.