Crazy Canuck

Pete, how does the Boxster Spyder compare to the Cayman R?

stout

Based on a medium-length drive in the Cayman R recently, yes. Over good roads, there were some interesting observations, but I am not ready to issue fuller commentary than that yet.

Thus, I am looking to do a longer, Speedster vs. GTS-like test soon. Only problem has been figuring out a track venue. Have the cars, Johannes, and everything else lined up. Unfortunately, I cannot find any track days or autocrosses that week to allow Johannes to do at-limit testing.

Carrera GT

Sounds like Boxster owners should get the parts numbers on those Boxster Spyder springs and dampers.

Carrera GT

As I understand it, as the linear spring rate increases, it (perhaps obviously) contributes to the roll stiffness of the car, thus a "softer" anti-sway bar setting compensates. The same interaction continues into the slow speed rebound of the dampers. All three, plus the tire sidewall and pressure at optimum operating temperature, and even camber gain in the suspension geometry contribute to the roll stiffness.

It's interesting to study how all these factors come into play, but I can only imagine the R&D required to arrive at "genius" level compromises. As ever, start by adding lightness and lowering the roll center of the car. Of course, not every 911 driver will have the option to extract a couple of hundred pounds or to lower the engine and transmission or push the fuel cell further and lower behind the front axle line, etc. So we have to be contented with a click on the rebound or a psi of tire pressure and try not to make things worse ... : )

stout

Pete, Can you expand on this thought a bit? I'm having Alex at SW put the RSS toe steer and rear link kit that he offers in, along with the 3.9 upgrade.[/QUOTE]

My analysis of the 997 GT3, which was a tough one to write back then, to put into words what I was feeling against what I know and respect about Porsche, appeared in the April 2007 issue.

Let me be clear: I love the way the 997 GT3 looks, love its interior, its engine noises, etc. I don't like the clutch or hefty shifter, as I think they are marketing-driven, add nothing (for me), and reduce the kind of fluidity in control inputs that make Porsches magical. However, that's me, and I know there are others out there. I don't know if I would actually change the shifter and add assist to the clutch in a 997 GT3 (probably not), but I do know I would have to do something about the suspension.

First, let me say I understand why Porsche went to PASM systems: to meet the needs of their customers. In doing so, however, I suspect, at some level, they had to effectively throw away decades of damper-tuning knowledge and start over. Next, just as you aren't supposed to change springs without changing the dampers, I wonder about doing it all on dampers. Until the Carrera GTS came along, there wasn't one PASM setup that impressed me like the 959S (not Komfort), 993 RS, 986 Euro M030 (very Boxster Spyder-like), and others.

But, for me, the 997-1 GT3 was probably the low point along the PASM curve. The car didn't feel connected to the ground, especially when the going got a bit bumpy (which is probably my favorite kind of driving, because it presents another kind of mental challenge). The car felt jiggly, which meant there was too much body motion, which probably meant the tires were being unloaded and loaded too much, too quickly. Which led to a feeling that the car wasn't under me — that it wasn't "taking a set."

Not believing what I was perceiving, I drove that press car down to a shop where one of the few suspension guys in this country I know has not only the theory of damping but the "black art of it down. He took one drive down the street and his eyes were wide as saucers. "This is the way the car comes?!" Then I pressed the Sport damper button.

Since then, I've driven several great 997s, but the best one by far was Jared Cullop's supercharged Carrera S, which was a mix of GT3 Cup & GMG suspension parts, Motons, 18s, R888s, etc. It was set up for VIR, with serious springs, but rode just fine on rough back roads (in my view, anyway. YMMV). Bigger thing was I felt invincible in that car, like I could get it to do anything, like I could probe right up to the limit safely... It was utterly predictable, and that's where real speed — and fun — comes from. At least in my view.

And that's why I like the 996 GT3 so much. Flawed for sure, with all that tramlining due to crap suspension geometry due to being lowered from its cost-saving chassis' normal spot, but utterly predictable. I'll never forget my first time at VIR, in a 996 GT3 with Murry riding along. As I got faster and faster, a hump suddenly mattered. I think we were doing about 115 mph when the rear pitched sideways just a bit. I giggled a funny giggle I've never heard since (and don't necessarily want to), over-corrected just a bit, and then caught it on the flip side. It was over in less than a second. The car wasn't going to fix it for me, but it gave me everything I needed to fix it myself. So predictable, you could learn on the fly in a situation like that.

Also, go drive a 996 GT3 and a 996 Turbo or 996 C4S sometime. The 996 GT3 rode better around town. That's when you know damping genius is at work. The Boxster Spyder and the Cayman R are examples of similar damping genius.

So what would I do with a 997 GT3. I'd buy a set of Motons or JRZs or ? — but then that's where the hard work comes in: finding the right person to dial in the high- and low-speed damping. I'm sure there are more people who know how, but I only know, from personal experience, of three I'd hand my car to.

And, no, I am not saying who publically. Wouldn't be professional of me to do so, and it would open me up to liability if you disagreed with me after you got the work done. If there is anything I've learned, "ride" is very subjective — which is probably what brought us PASM.

stout

I am becoming more and more convinced it is more about the right person, who has a "feel" for damping, than R&D. It's the only way I can get my head around the illogical fact that I've driven 911 SCs with revalved Bilsteins to a hot-rodder's specs that ride and handle better than many new cars — and certain VW products over the last decade that accomplish that equally tall feat of managing to ride and handle badly.

stout

And now I have a question for you guys: HOW DO YOU GET ANY WORK DONE?!?

Sorry, but I gotta go. Have a magazine to get out. One with a car I kinda see as the second coming of the Yellow Bird, even if it will never gain as much notoriety. Hint: It'll be right up all y'all's alley.

stout

A 911 in which you shift out of second at over 90 mph and out of third at 121-122 mph (if memory serves) will do that to you...

Crazy Canuck

We have an all consuming addiction.

stout

Yeah, I know. I do too. I'm still here.

Sometimes I think I am a bad influence, a bad seed. Along those lines, I've been playing with changing the tagline from "The Magazine About Porsche" to "Like crack for Porschephiles" but I don't think the Publisher would go for it.

But then, this forum more than any other perhaps (and others more closely aligned with my personal Porsche interests), is like crack for me. Maybe it's because it's filled with drivers first.

pete

stout

Oh yeah: And Alex is definitely a bad seed. This whole thread is his fault.

917962

It's those "bad seeds" that give us clarity.

917962

Cannot wait to read the next issue. I loved Yellow's hips! And a great personality to boot.

Laguna_Dude

All you have to do is look at what comes on a Cup. Those sways are gnarly. I think you guys are putting too much thought into this. Bottom-line, the mk1 GT3-RS is a street car. The suspension was intentionally set to leave performance on the table for the mk2's. Look for the Cups for inspiration if you want to track. After all, Cups are the best handling, most balanced, 911's period.

As for guys that know that "black art" of suspension in Socal. I would say 1.) GMG. They have capabilities that will blow your mind. At the track, they are constantly dialing the setups with incredible data logging (shock pots, etc.), videos, feedback from James, etc. And in the end, when you bring your street car there for work, all the race-weekend data goes into your car for a baseline set that is as close to perfect for an all-rounder as you can ask for; and 2.) Joey at BBI Autosport. There's a reason ALMS teams hire him. And he's very accessible and can continue to dial the setup as you progress and provide input. He transformed my RS from tail happy slippery fish to a balanced track eating machine.

FFaust

Pete - I thoroughly enjoy reading your insights. Thank you.