Crazy Canuck

Carrera GT

Hard to put the 996 GT3 ahead of the 997.2 RS. I think you drove my 996 GT3 and my 997.2 RS is no different than stock -- thinking about comparing those two cars, there's no doubt the .2 RS is far superior. Curb weight is about the same, power delivery and gearing is brilliant, steering feel and feedback is better, apex speeds are mind-boggling and stability at the limits of grip is an ear to ear grin.

It's really only the effusive praise for the 4.0 engine that has me willing to fork over the dough, otherwise, if the 4.0 price was higher or the spec was lower, I'd be happy to stay in the 3.8 probably forever and just back to tinkering with 993's. After all, most of what I do to "improve" a 997 is just to make it feel more like a 993 but with more grip in the rear suspension. : )

Speaking of grip, the .2 RS implementation of PASM isn't upset on the track -- at least, within my limits, I don't feel like the suspension is letting me down. Maybe once I get an LSD in this 3.8 I'll change my tune about the dampers. Someone coming out of another 911 with better dampers probably detects what's missing, but I'm only ever in the RS, so it's familiar without any contempt.

I'm looking forward to the 4.0 and would certainly be open to pulling out the PASM and putting in even a pretty ordinary set of springs and dampers -- I'm not interested in doing the R&D for myself, so once you or Chris Harris or JVO or someone reviews some aftermarket suspension upgrades for the .2 GT3 and RS, I'll be happy to take a turnkey solution that doesn't have me tweaking fast and slow settings, etc.

911SLOW

Talking stock cars.

+1 Pete, although I would put the mk16GT3 first and give the second place to the 6GT3RS *for the LWFW and 7.2RS for the short RP and sweet setup.
Lap times and overall efficiency have nothing to do with this decision.
It's all about feeling.

drqiman

I appreciate the inputs so far. It seems that the only thing left to do to resolve this question is to take all versions to the track and "special back roads" and drive them back to back the same day. Just like Excellence did with the GT2RS and GT3RS. I remember that GMG said they have a couple of 4.0's doing the conversion and that they have already tested this engine on the street extensively. A GMG 4.0 conversion should be available soon and we already have several SW 3.9's. We can then compare the winner to the factory 4.0 when it is available here in the US. How bout it guys?

PS If I am able to rescue one of those factory 4.0's being held hostage by the dealers risking great bodily harm with fluff options I will make it available for the test.

stout

All fair points, CGT. Here's why I think what I think, and we're now talking more "Pete the enthusiast," less "Pete the editor":

I had two 996 GT3 test cars. Put 1000-1500 miles on each. Also drove several 996 GT3s on track. Spent similar (though not quite as much) time in 997 GT3s and 997 GT3 RSs of both generations, plus more track time in the 997s than the 996s. Here's the difference for me, personally: You couldn't get me out of the 996 GT3s, imperfect as they were (and they were), but I was never all that bummed to get out of the 997s. Loop in mixed/varied wet-dry (by far the most treacherous situation) in 996 GT3 with no PSM? Yum. Setting up a sound system in Union Square for a Christmas concert? After loading the main truck, I loaded a crate of heavy wires and other equipment in a 6 GT3 and drove it over to the unloading zone —*just to spend more time in/around it. Didn't even occur to me at the time why I was doing that, and I am VERY cautious with press cars. In contrast, the 997-1 GT3 RS sat in the warehouse for one of the weekends it was here.

The various 997 GT3s, while very, very good, simply haven't had quite the effect on me that the 996 GT3 did. I like the way the 7 GT3s look better, like their interiors better, like their torque better, like their grip, like their speed, like their brakes, and like them in general — but I don't like them better.

After the 997 GT2 RS vs. GT3 RS test (1000+ miles on road and track), I was pretty happy to get out of those cars (and, lest you think I'm going soft, I found commuting to work through SF and 14-hour days in CTR 001 to be good fun). Part of that why I didn't mind getting out of the 997 GT3s is the same reason I usually don't mind giving press cars back: They're a ton of responsibility. But there was something else at work, too. Something harder to define. Over 14 years, three Porsche press cars were particularly tough to hand back: 996 GT3, Carrera GT, and Boxster Spyder. This is hard to quantify, but they were all three of them magical cars that went beyond their performance in any given set of categories. None of the 997 GT3s quite "got there" for me in the same way the 6 GT3 did, though the RS 3.8 was certainly very, very close.

Interestingly, I've watched a number of friends (3-4 friends) sell their 997-1 GT3s and either drift away from 911s or find the new Boxster Spyder to be what they were really looking for (2 friends).

I know I differ from Harris and many owners on my feelings about the 7 GT3s, and I have a lot of respect for those viewpoints. Let's face it: Harris is on another level as a driver, and the owners I respect, listen to, and envy most are the ones who, like Mooty, Peter, Bob, Peter, you, and others, use these 911s the way they were meant to be...though Snowboarder remains my hero. 50,000+ miles on a 997 GT3, almost all of them on great roads. Totally sandblasted wheel arches and an oil change every other rear tire change? What a life! The fact he adds so much pure joy to my life just by being who he is doesn't hurt, either. The real deal, through and through.

pete

stout

Exactly.

Never drove the 996-1 GT3 or 996-2 GT3 RS, though I would have dearly loved to.

GrantG

I often hear high praise for the original 996.1 GT3 that was never imported to the US. Is it impossible to make a 996.2 GT3 feel that way by retrofitting the earlier suspension or other items? What do you think contributes to the better feel of the 2000-2001 GT3?

Alan Smithee

Interesting. Does it have anything to do with PASM?

911SLOW

I wrote the following in this thread: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-gt2-...hlight=gt3+mk1

I am definitely no Pete with words, and my English is average but perhaps you can understand how much I liked the mk1.

Is it possible to make a mk2 feel the same? I would have to say close maybe, but same no way.


"Yes it is the most important car in the newer Porsche history IMO.
Knowing that "better" will mean different things to different people here is my take talking about the driving feeling experience here, not speeds or times or specs.

The 6mk2 and the 996RS are very close. If blindfolded and the mk2 has a LWFW you can't tell which one you are driving if the road is not terrible.

Then the 997.1 GT3 and RS are quite close to the 996 and extremely close to each other. Nothing major but the design, if you forget the not so "clever" (sic) suspension then the driving feeling was close.

The 997.2GT3 is quite different than the above and has all the charisma without the misbehaviors of the previous cars. But it feels like a stronger 997.1 GT3 with a better suspension and aero package. The 2010RS pushed everything even further this time in relation to the older cars and to its current based GT3 brother and probably is the most complete and more competent GT3 ever created.

But none of them and this is very interesting, and quite unexplainable for me till this day, can match the way the mk1 feels, drives, turns or sounds. Fluid comes in mind. This car feels fluid ; Sorry I don’t have a better word to use. It also feels so agile and extremely lightweight and small.

I did try to rationalize it in terms of ok the mk1 has no drive by wire gas pedal , had different springs, less weight, different engine management, different track widths, wheel widths, alignment etc etc but then came to realize that all these things were evolved in the mk2 996 gt3 and on the following gt3’s and became better and better on paper. Engine became more reliable, the ABS is quicker, the DME is better, the springs are more suitable for the car, the wheels are wider, the body is stiffer etc etc.

So why in the hell this car feels so different and so brilliant? The only plausible explanation that I have come up with is, that either it’s all in my head, or that this car had one quality that always makes some things be above all else. Every part on this car was a perfect match for the part next to it, and all of them worked together so bloody well. It had mechanical “equilibrium”.
So I guess sometimes balance, can beat excellence..


Cheers."

stout

[QUOTE=911SLOW;8704421]
But none of them and this is very interesting, and quite unexplainable for me till this day, can match the way the mk1 feels, drives, turns or sounds. Fluid comes in mind. This car feels fluid ----> YES, I "get this"

The only plausible explanation that I have come up with is, that either it’s all in my head, or that this car had one quality that always makes some things be above all else. Every part on this car was a perfect match for the part next to it, and all of them worked together so bloody well. It had mechanical “equilibrium”. So I guess sometimes balance, can beat excellence.. ----> YES, this is what makes the Boxster Spyder so special.

aussie jimmy

i agree. i reckon it's the synergy of many things aligning together that just happens sometimes. it's like getting a perfect signal on an old analog radio tuner, then you go to touch/improve it, and then no matter how much you tweak that dial, it can be a long time before you get that 'sweet spot' again.

GrantG

Thanks, John!

GrantG

Sorry to hijack, but Pete do you think the Spyder is better to drive than the Cayman R?

MM3.9GT3

A well kept secret is that there are 17 Mk1 GT3's in the U. S. They just go by a different name - Ruf RGT. I believe that all of them are 2001 models. Ruf purists may disagree with me, but the car is essentially a Mk1 GT3 with an integrated roll cage, and Ruf modifications to the engine/exhaust to produce 385 hp (up from 360 hp in the Mk1 GT3).

I am lucky enough to own one, and agree with John's and Pete's comments.

GrantG

There are also a small number of real 996.1 GT3's that were imported. I almost bought a beautiful blue one that was sold in Reno last year. I think it had a 2,500 mile/yr limitation as a condition of importation.