quickxotica

I don’t own a GT3. I’ve instructed in quite a few and driven a couple for brief orientation laps, but that’s it. I am posting this here not as a rant, but rather as an actual question.

Preuninger’s GT cars, if I am reading his interviews right, are supposed to be all about the driving experience and their marginal utility over the “regular” 911 as dual-use street/trackday cars. In my view, they need to be able to stand on those two merits.

Do they?

I haven’t see any Carreras actually break at the track just because they lacked some GT3 part. And on a year-for-year basis the Carreras aren’t that much slower either, on street or track. Those two observations make me question the marginal-utility argument. Taking it one step further, I have seen very good drivers who move from regular Carreras to GT3’s only to find their track laptimes either don’t change or actually get worse because they are so intimidated by the car, its tricky set-up issues and the potential for di$a$ter. Some of them are quite frustrated by this. I know others who have nice GT3’s but use them exclusively for weekend drives on the street, preferring to track their older, slower, cheaper cars because they have more fun doing so. And all the Carrera drivers who track their cars seem to emerge from each session just as sweaty & elated as the GT3 guys. So I question the “driving experience” argument too.

It’s easy to get caught up in this dizzy solar system you guys occupy… Chris Harris videos, Sharky 3.9’s, unobtanium RS parts and umpteen websites orbiting these GT-cars like moths around a torch. It’s an impressive and dedicated fan-base, all shouting the same song… and I enjoy the Kool-aid too. I want it to be true, but… really?

I can understand having a fascination with the machine itself as an engineering object & as a pride-of-ownership thing. That doesn’t offend me. And modding cars is fun too. But, if you ignore all the fancy parts and the big numbers, shut off your inner O.C.D. geek and just DRIVE the thing: Are you really having that much more fun than you would in a normal 911? The hype, the looks, the motorsports heritage and the community are all good, but just isolate the drive (street & track) – When you’re in your car, wheels turning, really what’s the difference? Just noise & stiffness?

On the pride-of-ownership front, expectations are so high for these cars I’m not sure anyone is ever actually impressed any more by anything a driver does in them. People just assume the car deserves all the credit and the driver is the weakest link. That’s not very fun. The latest RS 4.0L is a case-in-point. The last thing in the world the 3.8RS needed was more power. A diet would be nice for track usage I suppose, but more power? Come on! I drove a stock ’04 6GT3 around a track – and when I finally wound that thing out I thought: “this is too much power for street tires.” How does an extra 125hp improve the experience when the 04’s 375hp is already a bit excessive? Once you get below 10 lbs/hp, you’re in a world of sharply diminishing returns (in any non-professional context). On the street, the extra reach of the GT3 cars is even more superfluous because the amount of time that can be legally spent above 7k rpm is tiny (unless you really love first gear).

And yet you all willingly put up with the extra cost & compromises vs. a regular Carrera. So I’m hoping you guys can set me straight. How do you vouch for the emperor’s clothes?

TIA.

Crazy Canuck

I kept my Carrera S when I bought my GT3.

They are different cars. Carrera S is a much better street car - pretty good on the track, GT3 a much better track car - rough as hell on the street. They feel similar but different. Driven on a track the feel driving one vs. the other is noticeably different. The GT is sharper.

Sometimes logic has no place in an emotional decision. We all want what we want for our own reasons.

Come up to a Rennsport event (Eastern Ontario & Quebec). What you will find is likely the highest concentration of GT3s in all of PCA and they are well driven.

fc-racer

If it was all about logic, we'd be driving used Corvette Z06's For me, the GT3's direct lineage to the Cup car makes it special; the high pitched scream from the exhaust from 5,000 - 8,000 rpm alone is worth the price of admission. As Crazy Canuck mentioned, the GT cars are all about emotion, and that emotion comes at a relatively reasonable price, as compared to its competitors with similar emotion (Ferrari, etc).

Carrera GT

The Carrera is more livable on the street. Just get a GT3 on a hoist next to a Carrera and look at the engineering of the suspension and power train. The GT3, especially in its more recent models, has things like brake cooling, transmission cooling, beef in the wheel carriers, brakes and suspension components. The engine is completely different and far superior. Still, both cars make the AMG's and M's look like parts-bin pretenders and still run all the same hardware as their street car origins.

And look at a few examples of what people will do to a Carrera to make it a sharpened sword on the track. Both cars can end up being ideal track day cars, but the GT3 starts in the bullseye, the Carrera needs a little more "aiming" to get there.

OldGuy

Quick
Lotsa good questions, and that comes to every GT3 buyers mind when they decide to pull the trigger. The GT3 is a tool to use at the track and it does a damn good job. But after having 2 GT3s the answer for me changed when I got in the NEW 997.2 Carrera S with the PDK. When you have to decide how much are you going to use the GT3 at the track and how much on the street then balance those two along with the price. The Carrera S PDK finally got to the point I could no longer justify the GT3 vs. the C2S with Chrono Sport.
Now the C2S has normal mode, Sport mode and Sport Plus mode. The Sport mode to me is VERY much like the GT3s I had. In Sport PLUS mode its almost too much like a TRACK ONLY mode.
To me its THREE cars in one!!!

All your questions became real hard for me with this new C2S and when you throw in the price 10% off MSRP then ANOTHER $10K OFF how can you justify the GT car?

There is NO way for me to justify having a GT3 anymore. The Carrera is just as good in everyway that the GT3 was FOR ME. GIVEN MY driving level, the Carrera S PDK is probably FASTER around the track with ME DRIVING than the GT3. AND it FEELS that way on the street! We went head to head with a 2004 TT and beat it to 120 mph out on a mylasian drag strip out here in the desert with the TT owner driving the C2S!
Now having said all that. Like Carrera GT said put a GT3 on a hoist and just STARE at it! Its a PURE example of a racing machine that you can have on the street. I used to do that and just look at it. Like we used to go in the garage at nite and just look at your Porsche. You can do the same thing with the under carraige of the GT3. Its the PRIDE of ownership. The owning of one of the greatest driving machines ever made.
But like I said, the new Carrera 3.8 PDK is so close to a GT3 in performance that I cant justify owning one. Its too soon to say the new 9A1 motor is a SOLID Home Run but its got to be as good as the GT1 motor that started all this.
I DO miss the aero tho.

mobonic

A well driven C2S will drive circles around the averge guy in a GT3... they just cant handle the car aclose to the limits.

I have a C2S track car and get the why didn't you just get a GT3 or a cup car..but 99.9% of the time its from those that have neither.

I will say that the GT platform is a bit better suited for the track straight out of the box, and the DRYSUMP engine and the extra 2,000 rpms... makes that bitch a blast!

Take a trip to the RING and you will see endless GT cars.. and most of them are being passed by clio's and golf's.

Most buy becuase of the heritage, which is nothing wrong.. but seeing a well driven GT car at the track is a thing of beauty...

My next Pcar will be a 3.8 GT3 and it will get broken in and beaten on the track.. and I promise I will drive that car to MY limits!

kyrocks

Great write-up.

I love my C4S and GT3 for different reasons. At the track, there is no comparison for me. Both cars stock, I am WAY faster in the GT3 mostly because of suspension and handling rather than horsepower. You're right, 500 HP is tons for this car. I am the limiting factor, not the car and I like it that way. It gives me room to improve and learn. Coming from a Cayman, I could say I reached a plateau where the car felt limiting rather than my abilities (I may be wrong). Love the GT3.

BBMGT3

Its funny you created this thread.

I went from a 05 C2S to a 08 GT3.

The C2S has PSM, TC, PASM
The GT3 has a button and a light that says TC. But don't be fooled.

So - I tracked my C2S endlessly. I grew fond of the understeer; would drive around it, drove it to the limit almost all the time and never worried about it. Never worried about swapping ends - it was easy to drive

Moving on to the GT3, and my first reaction is that I am overloaded with information. The front end wants to dart in whatever direction you even think about. The rear end twitches and rolls and wants to punish you. In the C2S, flooring the throttle in 2nd and powering over a flyover and onto the freeway was easy. PSM, TC, all came to the rescue if you ever got into trouble. In the GT3 its out of the question.

Took the GT3 to the track. Was immediately 3 seconds slower than my best time in the C2S. Now, granted my alignment was COMPLETELY off, and my ram-air gasket had slipped off (the thing between the decklid and the intake) but still. The car was a handful.

BUT

After some effort, set-up, and seat time, I am now already 3s quicker than my old C2S record. And there are guys who are still 3s up the road from me now, and the guys on semi-slicks are 3s up the road from them.

The C2S guys are all behind me. That includes the new PDKs, manuals, autos, whatever.

So, yes, the GT3 is the better car, the quicker car. The only thing is, the car gets better as you do, and to reach the limit of the car takes effort, frustration, money, time and determination. And the amount of time to be found it not 1-2 seconds like, say, a GTR or a 458. Its more like 5-8 seconds which just demonstrates how much the car is willing to do if you know how to drive it. I love it.

utkinpol

It depends of what you are after and other reasons. If we speak of PCA DEs only - then you can drive anything you want there, obviously. Who cares.

If you want to compete in a specific class with specific organization then all those features GT3 has stock are impossible to retrofit into base carrera without penalized violations. So it all depends of what priorities one has.

PS. my car by now has way better suspension than stock GT3 has. still, body is not quite rigid (ok, full cage may improve it), gearbox is trash, M96 is nowhere near to mezger... Does it matter for DEs? no.
but I cannot run my car with SCCA AX now as I would not be nearly competitive in class where all those mods put me. Stock 996 gt3 could still get same good camber, shocks would not be adjustible but it would hardly matter much in its class. Modded cars is a touch cookie. Carrera tub is great, one can do a lot of things out of it, still, if one want good track car - GT3, GT3 RS, 996 cup, 997 cup - there are many choices what starting point to choose.

Q&A

friend of mine completely ruined his Cayman engine on Spa Francorchamps. Not having a dry sump oil system, and the high speed, very long turns caused the engine to run "dry". Only Turbo and GT3 cars have this originally installed.

GT3 Techno

Actually, there is a huge gap in lap times between any Carreras and a GT3 driven by good hands ! I just don't understand how you can say the opposite

Good drivers that are saved by their PSM few times in each sessions in their Carreras (without knowing it) are slower at first in a GT3 because its like learning to walk again...

NVRANUF

I could not agree more!!

Last year was my first season in a 997 GT3.
I came from a 997 C2S Cab and in the beginning I actually could not keep up to my "old" C2S.... With track time and patience I began learning the GT3, and whooaaaaa what a sweetheart of a track car it has become!!..... and it's still a decent street ride as well, perhaps more civilized than the 996 version.

mobonic

I think we need to compare apples to apples....

A C2S out of the box is crap with its alignment and NO adjustable LCA.

But if you put GT3 LCA on a C2S and put the same alignment on both cars then the only factor really is:

60 more HP (gen 1 to gen1)
2,000 more RPM
increased aero

This should automatically translate to 1-2 seconds faster at most 2 mile tracks WITH A GOOD DRIVER... but I think with the average Joe they might be a lot closer than you think...

A GT3 will be no more tail happy than or turn in better than a C2S with the same specs and alignment (only difference is a bit stiffer spring rate at that point.)

pissedpuppy

nice post, very well written

quickxotica

I say it because that is what I have observed. A 2 second difference per lap is not "huge" IMHO on a roughly 2:00 minute, 3 mile lap. Especially not when you consider the tradeoffs.

Newbies who lean on PSM are already discounted from my analysis. I am talking about comparable drivers who have been tracking 911s since long before PSM was even available.

So far all I'm hearing from you guys is: 1. Emotion 2. Dry-sump. I'll grant you emotion. The dry sump is a plus over the m96... but that may no longer cut much ice relative to the 9A1 motor. Time will tell.

Anything else? Standing under the car staring at the undercarriage ain't my idea of a value-proposition. Neither is track-only use... at 3,100-3,200 lbs that's a bit too absurd to rationalize.