BBMGT3

2 seconds is one gap. Sometimes its 3 seconds, 4 seconds, and 5 seconds. Unless you've put a pro driver who is familiar with both cars in the same car on the same day and asked him to put down laps then its pretty subjective.

2nd, why are "newbies" who lean on PSM discounted from your analysis?

3rd, why is track use "absurd"? for the driver who wants to track it a lot, but doesn't want to spend a fortune on an actual racing car, but still has something that will look good on the road and be a lot of fun, then the gt3 is perfect. Come to think of it, I think thats what Porsche had in mind.

Buy a C2S, then a GT3. You'll see what we're talking about.

tcsracing1

the GT3 engine can withstand extended use of high heat and high rpm. If an owner is finding himself always under high rpm stress like multiple track weekends then a regular carrera will only get abused when compared to the GT3 engine which only comes to life in the high RPM range.

The GT3 is just a raw true to its heritage 911. That is why people who do not even see the track enjoy it.
It is like owning a classic race porsche in a modern body with creature comforts.

The 4.0L is a more powerful car, however more power is needed when compared to the competition.

The Carrera 911 is a great car. The GT3 is an awesome car.

If you want to pound the living daylights out of a porsche at the track you will be better off with the GT3.

cbzzoom

Sachsenring :

1. Porsche 997 GT3 RS (facelift) 1:34.75 139 '10 450 / 1400 Sportscars
2. Porsche 997 GT3 (facelift) 1:36.11 138 '09 435 / 1376 Sportscars
14. Porsche 997 Carrera 4S (facelift) 1:38.56 134 '08 385 / 1425 AutoBild Sportscars
15. Porsche 997 Carrera S (2008 facelift) 1:39.08 133 '08 385 / 1425 sportscars

Hockenheim :

10. Porsche 997 GT3 RS (facelift) 1:09.50 135 '10 450 / 1400 sportauto (Walter Ro
20. Porsche 997 GT3 (facelift) 1:10.40 133 '09 435 / 1376 Sport Auto
29. Porsche 997 GT3 RS 1:11.10 132 '06 415 / 1375 Sport Auto
35. Porsche 997 GT3 1:11.70 131 '06 415 / 1395 "Sport Auto"
59. Porsche 997 Carrera GTS (PDK +Sport Chrono) 1:12.90 129 '10 408 / 1450 Sportauto
70. Porsche 997 Carrera S (2008 facelift) 1:13.40 128 '08 385 / 1425 Sport Auto
78. Porsche 997 Carrera S (factory kit 381 PS) 1:13.70 127 '05 381 / 1474 sportauto

Tsukuba :

23. Porsche 997 Carrera 4S (facelift) 1:04.42 116 '08 385 / 1425 Best Motoring
24. Porsche 997 GT3 RS 1:04.51 116 '06 415 / 1375 Best motoring
30. Porsche 997 GT3 1:04.84 115 '06 415 / 1395 Best Motoring
43. Porsche 997 Carrera S (2008 facelift) 1:05.35 114 '08 385 / 1425 Best Motoring
45. Porsche 997 Carrera (2008 facelift) 1:05.58 114 '08 345 / 1415 Best Motoring

BBMGT3

Great info.

Was it raining at Tsukuba???

cbzzoom

Clearly the lap times are better, but buying a GT3 is not about lap times. If you wanted lap times you would buy a Corvette or a GTR, both of which do faster laps for cheaper. Faster laps also don't necessarily equal "fun".

I'm a Carrera owner who's been considering a GT3 for a long time and trying to decide if the jump is worth it to me. IMO the "je ne sais quoi" of the engine noise and quick revs and steering feel and all that driving pleasure stuff is worth a lot. It's also nice to feel that your own skill is holding you back, not the car, even if that's only actually 0.1 of a second.

One thing I've noticed is that GT3 depreciation is not nearly as bad as Carrera depreciation, so the cost to own from new to 6 years old is actually not that different.

I think John makes a couple of good points.

One is that cost is a big negative for a track car, or even a hoon street car in general, because it makes you afraid of hurting the car. Obviously if you are so rich that the cost is immaterial to you this doesn't apply. One of the things that's so fun about Miatas is that you just don't give a rat's **** about whether you blow it up or not, so you can do clutch drop drifts all day long and just laugh at the funny smells and noises coming from the car.

Another is that most people (and I mean even most people who think they are great drivers) are actually faster in cars that are set slightly to the understeer side of neutral. Too many enthusiasts dial for oversteer and wind up with a car that makes them a little bit afraid and thus they can't push to 10/10 , not consistently anyway.

mooty

john...

1. you have two kids? if so, forget GT3. if just one, sure.
2. 2 sec a lap is a very BIG gap.
3. of all ppl, you need a GT3.
4. u can and you will drive the GT3 on street when you first get it. but it gets old. it can be done, but i much rather drive a luxo barge as i putter at 2mph from one end of bay bridge to the other and swerve the potholes over 19th st.
5. some are comparing one gen of gt3 vs a later gen c2. you must compare the same era of cars. no C2 pdk or otherwise comes close to GT3 performance. i am not talking about versatility, but only about lap times.
6. you are much more logical than i. so if you are here trying to rationalize yourself into a GT3... LOL, i can give you a lot of reasons to use. but as far as i know, you only do GGR so it's about 8 days a year and being CDI, you have no time to drive as you will be screaming at me for going off the 8th time in one lap, so C2 fits you better. you give up a lot on useability on daily basis with 6gt3. now a 7gt3 is much more coffee. i am logical when i spend other's money. we can chat at BW. perhaps you will show up in a gt3 then.

carrering

I race in VLN. That Golf is 435hp/400ftlb and AWD. Its not slow as you can tell. By no means does it make the GT3 Cup feel like a slouch. I would rather drive the cup any day!

To OP,
stock for stock as Porsche delivers it with a fresh alignment, the GT3 is noticeably faster car. feedback which i think is missing from many modern 911's is right there which helps. all 911's are good cars however. GT3 is a great car.

OldGuy

John
what Q&A wrote was an issue 5-7 years ago, but no more. The newer "wet sump" motors arent going to fail like he is saying. Find the video showing the 9A1 motor at a complete 90 degree extended turn with no issue.
And there is NOTHING wrong with the 996 GT3 guys, Love em to death. I should have kept mine.
But those were some of the conversations we had in the 2005 Time Frame. A modern Cayman or 911 isnt going to suffer oil starvation on any modern course. Porsche MORE than took care of that in the 9A1 motor and probably the Cayman motor as well.

quickxotica

Thank you. Hey Techno, see? 2 seconds is in the ballpark.

quickxotica

Hey John: First, thanks! Great post. Didn't you used to have a 996 C2? Just for grins, what was your fastest TH laptime in that vs. your various past (streetable) GT3s?

Yes I look forward to discussing at BW.

quickxotica

Everyone, thanks for all the thoughtful answers so far. Trust me, I really do want to be convinced that you are correct. And I don't want to get too lost in a discussion of laptimes since when tracking just for personal enjoyment they’re not really that important...

Bmardini: I have nothing against newbies or PSM… I just meant to indicate that I was comparing apples-to-apples (experienced drivers to experienced drivers) in my observations. Also, I have nothing against heavy track usage of a street car. What I said was that “track-only” use of a GT3 is not a compelling value proposition to me. A real track-only car should weigh <2,500lbs with driver. Just my opinion of course.

I still think the value proposition of the (non-Cup) GT3 needs to be, 1. A superior driving experience, and 2. Marginal utility above the Carrera as a dual-purpose street/track car.

If you can have just as much fun behind the wheel of a Carrera, and it can handle trackday abuse without breaking, then what is the GT3 really left with? That is my question.

Mostly the folks I hear responding so far agree that the Carrera is a better street car. As far as the track goes, it's interesting to note that many who experienced the most dramatic improvements when switching from a Carrera to a GT3 were either a) coming from a Cabriolet or 2) just starting to learn the Carrera (some never even tried R-compound tires on it) before switching. My guess is they would have continued to improve & gotten faster & increased their on-track enjoyment by either switching to a Coupe or persevering in their old car with minor changes, respectively. Those who really worked at learning/maximizing the Carrera first, well, they only gained about 2 secs per lap and modest improvements in feel/thrill/intangibles. That's about what I would expect.

I think we can all agree that most drivers don’t really know what their Carrera can do. That can be said for most GT3s drivers too. So it comes down to whether the car makes approaching/exploring those limits a) possible & B) fun. Cbzzoom makes a good point about the miata in this regard. Carrera vs. GT3 by this measure? I don't know.

My skepticism is also informed by this: I'm not old, but started at trackdays where most people had less than 200hp. Many had only 95hp. People did amazing things in those old Porsches. Take one of those guys, put him in anything and he will be fast. A 1965 swb 911? No problem. Single-turbo 930 on ancient P7 tires? No problem. And you know what? Today, most of those guys don't choose the newest GT3s. They prefer either a real race car (way lighter) or something less perfect (way cheaper). After all, overcoming the imperfections of a car is a big part of the fun and challenge that makes trackdays so addictive.

My current car is the 03 C2 you see below. It holds it’s own just fine with most GT3s. Prior to that: two years in a Cayman S, nine years in a 944S/S2, one year in a ’70 911T. All have led dual-purpose lives on street and track. All have been fun. I would hate to make the leap to a GT3 only to slap my forehead a year later and $30-50k poorer when the tradeoff doesn’t seem so smart anymore.

Keep ‘em coming...

aussie jimmy

howabout a cayman r? sat in one the other day. beautiful daily driver for city and country roads and possibly fun to track, if not out n out fast?

BBMGT3

A real racing car is definitely as you say - light, on slicks, purpose built. It also needs to be trailered around, needs engine/gearbox rebuilds, preferably a championship to be raced in, and generally speaking a particularly heavy wallet to support. Not saying GT3's are cheap, but tracking a GT3 is a lot easier and cheaper than tracking a GT3 Cup Car.

As for the value proposition of the GT3 vs the Carrera, I don't think I agree with what you are saying. The GT3 does not have marginal utility over the Carrera and its not supposed to. I have a tiny trunk (90L tank), and a cage where the back seats are supposed to be. There are speed bumps in Dubai that are out of the question.

Then we move on to the definition of "fun". Since laptimes don't seem to be relevant , then by your argument, we should all be driving Boxsters. For me the GT3 is harder to drive, but ultimately quicker than the Carrera, and left you with an "emotion" as well. That did it for me - I upgraded.

Just FYI, I have a major issue with the 4.0 RS for similar pretenses as your OP. My 997.1 could be converted into something quicker, as powerful, and lighter than the 4.0 for about $40K, and that still leaves me with about $65K to play around with before I hit the 4.0RSLE price point...

GT3 Techno

May be you missed the answer to this from Mooty ?

"5. some are comparing one gen of gt3 vs a later gen c2. you must compare the same era of cars. no C2 pdk or otherwise comes close to GT3 performance. i am not talking about versatility, but only about lap times."

GT3 Techno

How many "experienced drivers" are saved by their PSM without having a clue about it ? Tell me, do you turn it OFF when you go on a track ? Also, how do you measure your lap times to compare them to your fellow GT3 owners ? Can you do this during a DE in your region ?