GT3 reality check.
05-13-2011, 09:43 AM
#46
And a 2010 boxster is probably quicker than an 80's gt3. It happens.
05-13-2011, 09:50 AM
#47
10 seconds gap on VIR. This is apples to apples.
http://www.fastestlaps.com/compariso..._facelift.html
Now, I do understand that a car is not only about lap times... My previous GT3 felt like an Escalade when compared to the Cup car !
http://www.fastestlaps.com/compariso..._facelift.html
Now, I do understand that a car is not only about lap times... My previous GT3 felt like an Escalade when compared to the Cup car !
05-13-2011, 11:40 AM
#48
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Yes, you can boogie in a C2S or something like that. It's a very good car.
What attracts me to the GT3 platform is not only the fact that it's stupid fast. What is really cool is that it is very difficult to maximize the performance of the car. Precisely what you are observing at DEs. Most guys can't touch the limits of the GT3. It's much easier to get to the limit of a C2S. It will probably not kill you if you go a little bit over and the limit itself is a bit more spread out, easier to see it coming. But once you get to the limit then what? You just keep driving in circles. Depending on how many track days you do per year it could be more than enough. But with enough track time it might get boring. The E part in DE is for education. There is a lot more to learn on the GT3.
Maybe in your area you don't see too many well driven GT3s. I haven't been there I can't say. In our neck of the woods we have a whole bunch of them and some are driven by very fast guys. Great for learning as you spend more time with each other on the track you feed off each others knowledge and skill. As the cars are pretty much the same with all the same modifications it's all about the driver.
In short. A GT3 is not purely about laptimes. It's about being able to brag about your giant ***** that you need to drive a GT3 quickly. Or at least you can pretend that you do. That's what I do.
What attracts me to the GT3 platform is not only the fact that it's stupid fast. What is really cool is that it is very difficult to maximize the performance of the car. Precisely what you are observing at DEs. Most guys can't touch the limits of the GT3. It's much easier to get to the limit of a C2S. It will probably not kill you if you go a little bit over and the limit itself is a bit more spread out, easier to see it coming. But once you get to the limit then what? You just keep driving in circles. Depending on how many track days you do per year it could be more than enough. But with enough track time it might get boring. The E part in DE is for education. There is a lot more to learn on the GT3.
Maybe in your area you don't see too many well driven GT3s. I haven't been there I can't say. In our neck of the woods we have a whole bunch of them and some are driven by very fast guys. Great for learning as you spend more time with each other on the track you feed off each others knowledge and skill. As the cars are pretty much the same with all the same modifications it's all about the driver.
In short. A GT3 is not purely about laptimes. It's about being able to brag about your giant ***** that you need to drive a GT3 quickly. Or at least you can pretend that you do. That's what I do.
05-13-2011, 11:42 AM
#49
I don’t own a GT3. I’ve instructed in quite a few and driven a couple for brief orientation laps, but that’s it. I am posting this here not as a rant, but rather as an actual question.
Preuninger’s GT cars, if I am reading his interviews right, are supposed to be all about the driving experience and their marginal utility over the “regular” 911 as dual-use street/trackday cars. In my view, they need to be able to stand on those two merits.
Do they?
I haven’t see any Carreras actually break at the track just because they lacked some GT3 part. And on a year-for-year basis the Carreras aren’t that much slower either, on street or track. Those two observations make me question the marginal-utility argument. Taking it one step further, I have seen very good drivers who move from regular Carreras to GT3’s only to find their track laptimes either don’t change or actually get worse because they are so intimidated by the car, its tricky set-up issues and the potential for di$a$ter. Some of them are quite frustrated by this. I know others who have nice GT3’s but use them exclusively for weekend drives on the street, preferring to track their older, slower, cheaper cars because they have more fun doing so. And all the Carrera drivers who track their cars seem to emerge from each session just as sweaty & elated as the GT3 guys. So I question the “driving experience” argument too.
It’s easy to get caught up in this dizzy solar system you guys occupy… Chris Harris videos, Sharky 3.9’s, unobtanium RS parts and umpteen websites orbiting these GT-cars like moths around a torch. It’s an impressive and dedicated fan-base, all shouting the same song… and I enjoy the Kool-aid too. I want it to be true, but… really?
I can understand having a fascination with the machine itself as an engineering object & as a pride-of-ownership thing. That doesn’t offend me. And modding cars is fun too. But, if you ignore all the fancy parts and the big numbers, shut off your inner O.C.D. geek and just DRIVE the thing: Are you really having that much more fun than you would in a normal 911? The hype, the looks, the motorsports heritage and the community are all good, but just isolate the drive (street & track) – When you’re in your car, wheels turning, really what’s the difference? Just noise & stiffness?
On the pride-of-ownership front, expectations are so high for these cars I’m not sure anyone is ever actually impressed any more by anything a driver does in them. People just assume the car deserves all the credit and the driver is the weakest link. That’s not very fun. The latest RS 4.0L is a case-in-point. The last thing in the world the 3.8RS needed was more power. A diet would be nice for track usage I suppose, but more power? Come on! I drove a stock ’04 6GT3 around a track – and when I finally wound that thing out I thought: “this is too much power for street tires.” How does an extra 125hp improve the experience when the 04’s 375hp is already a bit excessive? Once you get below 10 lbs/hp, you’re in a world of sharply diminishing returns (in any non-professional context). On the street, the extra reach of the GT3 cars is even more superfluous because the amount of time that can be legally spent above 7k rpm is tiny (unless you really love first gear).
And yet you all willingly put up with the extra cost & compromises vs. a regular Carrera. So I’m hoping you guys can set me straight. How do you vouch for the emperor’s clothes?
TIA.
Preuninger’s GT cars, if I am reading his interviews right, are supposed to be all about the driving experience and their marginal utility over the “regular” 911 as dual-use street/trackday cars. In my view, they need to be able to stand on those two merits.
Do they?
I haven’t see any Carreras actually break at the track just because they lacked some GT3 part. And on a year-for-year basis the Carreras aren’t that much slower either, on street or track. Those two observations make me question the marginal-utility argument. Taking it one step further, I have seen very good drivers who move from regular Carreras to GT3’s only to find their track laptimes either don’t change or actually get worse because they are so intimidated by the car, its tricky set-up issues and the potential for di$a$ter. Some of them are quite frustrated by this. I know others who have nice GT3’s but use them exclusively for weekend drives on the street, preferring to track their older, slower, cheaper cars because they have more fun doing so. And all the Carrera drivers who track their cars seem to emerge from each session just as sweaty & elated as the GT3 guys. So I question the “driving experience” argument too.
It’s easy to get caught up in this dizzy solar system you guys occupy… Chris Harris videos, Sharky 3.9’s, unobtanium RS parts and umpteen websites orbiting these GT-cars like moths around a torch. It’s an impressive and dedicated fan-base, all shouting the same song… and I enjoy the Kool-aid too. I want it to be true, but… really?
I can understand having a fascination with the machine itself as an engineering object & as a pride-of-ownership thing. That doesn’t offend me. And modding cars is fun too. But, if you ignore all the fancy parts and the big numbers, shut off your inner O.C.D. geek and just DRIVE the thing: Are you really having that much more fun than you would in a normal 911? The hype, the looks, the motorsports heritage and the community are all good, but just isolate the drive (street & track) – When you’re in your car, wheels turning, really what’s the difference? Just noise & stiffness?
On the pride-of-ownership front, expectations are so high for these cars I’m not sure anyone is ever actually impressed any more by anything a driver does in them. People just assume the car deserves all the credit and the driver is the weakest link. That’s not very fun. The latest RS 4.0L is a case-in-point. The last thing in the world the 3.8RS needed was more power. A diet would be nice for track usage I suppose, but more power? Come on! I drove a stock ’04 6GT3 around a track – and when I finally wound that thing out I thought: “this is too much power for street tires.” How does an extra 125hp improve the experience when the 04’s 375hp is already a bit excessive? Once you get below 10 lbs/hp, you’re in a world of sharply diminishing returns (in any non-professional context). On the street, the extra reach of the GT3 cars is even more superfluous because the amount of time that can be legally spent above 7k rpm is tiny (unless you really love first gear).
And yet you all willingly put up with the extra cost & compromises vs. a regular Carrera. So I’m hoping you guys can set me straight. How do you vouch for the emperor’s clothes?
TIA.
I say it because that is what I have observed. A 2 second difference per lap is not "huge" IMHO on a roughly 2:00 minute, 3 mile lap. Especially not when you consider the tradeoffs.
Newbies who lean on PSM are already discounted from my analysis. I am talking about comparable drivers who have been tracking 911s since long before PSM was even available.
So far all I'm hearing from you guys is: 1. Emotion 2. Dry-sump. I'll grant you emotion. The dry sump is a plus over the m96... but that may no longer cut much ice relative to the 9A1 motor. Time will tell.
Anything else? Standing under the car staring at the undercarriage ain't my idea of a value-proposition. Neither is track-only use... at 3,100-3,200 lbs that's a bit too absurd to rationalize.
Newbies who lean on PSM are already discounted from my analysis. I am talking about comparable drivers who have been tracking 911s since long before PSM was even available.
So far all I'm hearing from you guys is: 1. Emotion 2. Dry-sump. I'll grant you emotion. The dry sump is a plus over the m96... but that may no longer cut much ice relative to the 9A1 motor. Time will tell.
Anything else? Standing under the car staring at the undercarriage ain't my idea of a value-proposition. Neither is track-only use... at 3,100-3,200 lbs that's a bit too absurd to rationalize.
Everyone, thanks for all the thoughtful answers so far. Trust me, I really do want to be convinced that you are correct. And I don't want to get too lost in a discussion of laptimes since when tracking just for personal enjoyment they’re not really that important...
Bmardini: I have nothing against newbies or PSM… I just meant to indicate that I was comparing apples-to-apples (experienced drivers to experienced drivers) in my observations. Also, I have nothing against heavy track usage of a street car. What I said was that “track-only” use of a GT3 is not a compelling value proposition to me. A real track-only car should weigh <2,500lbs with driver. Just my opinion of course.
I still think the value proposition of the (non-Cup) GT3 needs to be, 1. A superior driving experience, and 2. Marginal utility above the Carrera as a dual-purpose street/track car.
If you can have just as much fun behind the wheel of a Carrera, and it can handle trackday abuse without breaking, then what is the GT3 really left with? That is my question.
Mostly the folks I hear responding so far agree that the Carrera is a better street car. As far as the track goes, it's interesting to note that many who experienced the most dramatic improvements when switching from a Carrera to a GT3 were either a) coming from a Cabriolet or 2) just starting to learn the Carrera (some never even tried R-compound tires on it) before switching. My guess is they would have continued to improve & gotten faster & increased their on-track enjoyment by either switching to a Coupe or persevering in their old car with minor changes, respectively. Those who really worked at learning/maximizing the Carrera first, well, they only gained about 2 secs per lap and modest improvements in feel/thrill/intangibles. That's about what I would expect.
I think we can all agree that most drivers don’t really know what their Carrera can do. That can be said for most GT3s drivers too. So it comes down to whether the car makes approaching/exploring those limits a) possible & B) fun. Cbzzoom makes a good point about the miata in this regard. Carrera vs. GT3 by this measure? I don't know.
My skepticism is also informed by this: I'm not old, but started at trackdays where most people had less than 200hp. Many had only 95hp. People did amazing things in those old Porsches. Take one of those guys, put him in anything and he will be fast. A 1965 swb 911? No problem. Single-turbo 930 on ancient P7 tires? No problem. And you know what? Today, most of those guys don't choose the newest GT3s. They prefer either a real race car (way lighter) or something less perfect (way cheaper). After all, overcoming the imperfections of a car is a big part of the fun and challenge that makes trackdays so addictive.
My current car is the 03 C2 you see below. It holds it’s own just fine with most GT3s. Prior to that: two years in a Cayman S, nine years in a 944S/S2, one year in a ’70 911T. All have led dual-purpose lives on street and track. All have been fun. I would hate to make the leap to a GT3 only to slap my forehead a year later and $30-50k poorer when the tradeoff doesn’t seem so smart anymore.
Keep ‘em coming...
Bmardini: I have nothing against newbies or PSM… I just meant to indicate that I was comparing apples-to-apples (experienced drivers to experienced drivers) in my observations. Also, I have nothing against heavy track usage of a street car. What I said was that “track-only” use of a GT3 is not a compelling value proposition to me. A real track-only car should weigh <2,500lbs with driver. Just my opinion of course.
I still think the value proposition of the (non-Cup) GT3 needs to be, 1. A superior driving experience, and 2. Marginal utility above the Carrera as a dual-purpose street/track car.
If you can have just as much fun behind the wheel of a Carrera, and it can handle trackday abuse without breaking, then what is the GT3 really left with? That is my question.
Mostly the folks I hear responding so far agree that the Carrera is a better street car. As far as the track goes, it's interesting to note that many who experienced the most dramatic improvements when switching from a Carrera to a GT3 were either a) coming from a Cabriolet or 2) just starting to learn the Carrera (some never even tried R-compound tires on it) before switching. My guess is they would have continued to improve & gotten faster & increased their on-track enjoyment by either switching to a Coupe or persevering in their old car with minor changes, respectively. Those who really worked at learning/maximizing the Carrera first, well, they only gained about 2 secs per lap and modest improvements in feel/thrill/intangibles. That's about what I would expect.
I think we can all agree that most drivers don’t really know what their Carrera can do. That can be said for most GT3s drivers too. So it comes down to whether the car makes approaching/exploring those limits a) possible & B) fun. Cbzzoom makes a good point about the miata in this regard. Carrera vs. GT3 by this measure? I don't know.
My skepticism is also informed by this: I'm not old, but started at trackdays where most people had less than 200hp. Many had only 95hp. People did amazing things in those old Porsches. Take one of those guys, put him in anything and he will be fast. A 1965 swb 911? No problem. Single-turbo 930 on ancient P7 tires? No problem. And you know what? Today, most of those guys don't choose the newest GT3s. They prefer either a real race car (way lighter) or something less perfect (way cheaper). After all, overcoming the imperfections of a car is a big part of the fun and challenge that makes trackdays so addictive.
My current car is the 03 C2 you see below. It holds it’s own just fine with most GT3s. Prior to that: two years in a Cayman S, nine years in a 944S/S2, one year in a ’70 911T. All have led dual-purpose lives on street and track. All have been fun. I would hate to make the leap to a GT3 only to slap my forehead a year later and $30-50k poorer when the tradeoff doesn’t seem so smart anymore.
Keep ‘em coming...
It might be useful if you bullet-point what you want to drive and how -- you mention track in every remark, but discount track driving as peripheral. The GT3 is a road car that's great on the track. One might say the RS is tips the balance to make a 911 that's a great track car that's good enough on the street. No matter which GT3 you choose, you're looking at an entirely track-oriented car. No use getting a GT3 and then bemoaning its harsh, yet still civil, road manners.
Your posts in this thread suggest you'd enjoy a PDK Carrera or an M3 or AMG C or E class.
05-13-2011, 01:40 PM
#52
Just a question about lap time comparisons in the list in one of the previous posts.
Are those tests conducted with cars straight from the dealership, unmodded and 110% stock? If so that also counts for the tires. Don't forget that a Carrera comes on road tires ( Michelin PS2?) and a GT3 has either P Zero Corsa or Michelin Cup tires. Big difference on the racetrack IMO.
Are those tests conducted with cars straight from the dealership, unmodded and 110% stock? If so that also counts for the tires. Don't forget that a Carrera comes on road tires ( Michelin PS2?) and a GT3 has either P Zero Corsa or Michelin Cup tires. Big difference on the racetrack IMO.
05-13-2011, 02:16 PM
#53
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Just a question about lap time comparisons in the list in one of the previous posts.
Are those tests conducted with cars straight from the dealership, unmodded and 110% stock? If so that also counts for the tires. Don't forget that a Carrera comes on road tires ( Michelin PS2?) and a GT3 has either P Zero Corsa or Michelin Cup tires. Big difference on the racetrack IMO.
Are those tests conducted with cars straight from the dealership, unmodded and 110% stock? If so that also counts for the tires. Don't forget that a Carrera comes on road tires ( Michelin PS2?) and a GT3 has either P Zero Corsa or Michelin Cup tires. Big difference on the racetrack IMO.
You've got to take the stock tires into account when looking at those official laptimes. GT3 is still faster even on equal tires, of course, but the difference is less than most people think. The difference is probably less than the typical variation between non-pro drivers in identical cars. So, it's not overwhelming.
And I don't understand why some of you complained about the first set of laptimes was mixing generations? It looked like the first two tracks in that list showed only facelift vs. facelift. (EDIT: oh, now I see the pre-facelift times in there, sorry. So it's more like 4 seconds Gen2 vs Gen2, not 2... but STILL -- when you take tire differences out of the equation (which is what happens at a trackday since the Carrera will run r-comps just like the GT3), then the observable difference drops again to 2 seconds). BFD.
Last edited by quickxotica; 05-13-2011 at 03:20 PM.
05-13-2011, 04:05 PM
#54
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Lots to respond to, so sorry if I don’t get back to each of you personally. Thank you for the good insights & very good PMs. I appreciate them all.
Some answers:
First, there is no PSM in my car. PSM was optional in ‘03, and my car was built without it. I will attach a picture of the option sticker so you don’t accuse me of lying. Now, of course in my past ’07 Cayman S, there was PSM (and PASM too, like the 7GT’s), but at the track I preferred the car with PSM off. My earlier cars of course had nothing. If you want to talk about electronic driver aids, do not wag your finger at PSM while riding around on PASM shocks, which arguably interfere just as much in vehicle dynamics (for just one example: helping to manage weight transfer when you lift off the gas and start to brake, even adjusting this transition depending on bumps. It does this automatically (though perhaps not very well) rather than you having to finesse your footwork). Modern GT3’s (996 excepted) are not free of electronic aids. Even today's race cars have the super-duper ABS. These computers are unnavoidable in today's Carrera vs. GT3.
Second, I disagree with those who say that the disadvantage of the Carrera is that you run out of things to learn, whereas in a GT3 there is so much more. Unless you collect your paychecks from a professional race team, I think you are fooling yourself. None of us will ever be done learning this sport. It is completely arrogant to say “I have learned everything I can from this car.” No. Put an instructor or a coach in the car next to you and after a few laps they will find something to improve and will make you faster. You can learn in a 1949 Chevy pickup. If you stop trying to learn, then the guy next to you who has a more open mind will get in the ’49 Chevy and go faster than you did.
Here is where I DO agree: The GT3 is more visceral, more emotional, more dangerous & thrilling. Yes, yes, and yes. Maybe that is enough. Like you guys say, it’s nice to have a choice.
Carrera GT: We’ve met. I was there when you ran that 1:50 at Infineon in the PDK C4S Cab. (case in point about laptimes btw, how much faster is a GT3?). But to your questions about price: I’m not looking at new cars. My blood is not quite that blue yet. I have a kid, a house, a swimming pool to fix, etc. You know… the important stuff!
So really I was talking about selling my car and buying a used ’04 or ’07 GT3 (lots of debate between those, well covered elsewhere, no need to re-hash here). Hence my $30k-$50k figure was the initial outlay to upgrade, not depreciation. In exchange for that outlay, plus the sacrifice in street-utility, I would want a 2x improvement in fun at the track, not 1.1x. That is the genesis of all this hoo-hah. Trackdays are very important to me, but the car MUST do both. As I said earlier, track-only is a completely separate game.
And don’t throw me in the AMG E-class bucket. Sheesh. I pulled the A/C out of my 944S to save weight, and it was my only car at the time. I completely rebuilt the suspension too, all by myself. I drove it like that for years, all over Norcal, even to Buttonwillow in July at 104F. Currently, I have pulled the entire stereo (every damn wire) out of my 996C2 to save weight. I love it this way. Weight is anathema to me, but I love the toughness of Porsches so I will never go to Lotus-ville.
Techno: Yes, my PCA region allows timing. In fact, we have a 30+ year history of running competitive time-trials, so we have all that history of everyone’s laptimes in all types of Porsches. I also use Traqmate data aq. I have a library of years of data files I could send you, plus video. But there is no need. Just believe me when I say what I have observed. I am not imagining things.
So far, I think I am hearing you guys correctly, but please tell me if not: You’re saying the GT3 experience is just so much more special, so much more of an event, that the impracticalities and the cost are worth it vs. the same-year Carrera 2/S (for most of you - O.G. excepted). Is that what you’re saying? If so, fine. I can make my own decision on whether those intangibles are worth it to me.
Thanks again. - John
P.S. Bonus pic to jog the memories of those who've met me.
Some answers:
First, there is no PSM in my car. PSM was optional in ‘03, and my car was built without it. I will attach a picture of the option sticker so you don’t accuse me of lying. Now, of course in my past ’07 Cayman S, there was PSM (and PASM too, like the 7GT’s), but at the track I preferred the car with PSM off. My earlier cars of course had nothing. If you want to talk about electronic driver aids, do not wag your finger at PSM while riding around on PASM shocks, which arguably interfere just as much in vehicle dynamics (for just one example: helping to manage weight transfer when you lift off the gas and start to brake, even adjusting this transition depending on bumps. It does this automatically (though perhaps not very well) rather than you having to finesse your footwork). Modern GT3’s (996 excepted) are not free of electronic aids. Even today's race cars have the super-duper ABS. These computers are unnavoidable in today's Carrera vs. GT3.
Second, I disagree with those who say that the disadvantage of the Carrera is that you run out of things to learn, whereas in a GT3 there is so much more. Unless you collect your paychecks from a professional race team, I think you are fooling yourself. None of us will ever be done learning this sport. It is completely arrogant to say “I have learned everything I can from this car.” No. Put an instructor or a coach in the car next to you and after a few laps they will find something to improve and will make you faster. You can learn in a 1949 Chevy pickup. If you stop trying to learn, then the guy next to you who has a more open mind will get in the ’49 Chevy and go faster than you did.
Here is where I DO agree: The GT3 is more visceral, more emotional, more dangerous & thrilling. Yes, yes, and yes. Maybe that is enough. Like you guys say, it’s nice to have a choice.
Carrera GT: We’ve met. I was there when you ran that 1:50 at Infineon in the PDK C4S Cab. (case in point about laptimes btw, how much faster is a GT3?). But to your questions about price: I’m not looking at new cars. My blood is not quite that blue yet. I have a kid, a house, a swimming pool to fix, etc. You know… the important stuff!
So really I was talking about selling my car and buying a used ’04 or ’07 GT3 (lots of debate between those, well covered elsewhere, no need to re-hash here). Hence my $30k-$50k figure was the initial outlay to upgrade, not depreciation. In exchange for that outlay, plus the sacrifice in street-utility, I would want a 2x improvement in fun at the track, not 1.1x. That is the genesis of all this hoo-hah. Trackdays are very important to me, but the car MUST do both. As I said earlier, track-only is a completely separate game.And don’t throw me in the AMG E-class bucket. Sheesh. I pulled the A/C out of my 944S to save weight, and it was my only car at the time. I completely rebuilt the suspension too, all by myself. I drove it like that for years, all over Norcal, even to Buttonwillow in July at 104F. Currently, I have pulled the entire stereo (every damn wire) out of my 996C2 to save weight. I love it this way. Weight is anathema to me, but I love the toughness of Porsches so I will never go to Lotus-ville.
Techno: Yes, my PCA region allows timing. In fact, we have a 30+ year history of running competitive time-trials, so we have all that history of everyone’s laptimes in all types of Porsches. I also use Traqmate data aq. I have a library of years of data files I could send you, plus video. But there is no need. Just believe me when I say what I have observed. I am not imagining things.
So far, I think I am hearing you guys correctly, but please tell me if not: You’re saying the GT3 experience is just so much more special, so much more of an event, that the impracticalities and the cost are worth it vs. the same-year Carrera 2/S (for most of you - O.G. excepted). Is that what you’re saying? If so, fine. I can make my own decision on whether those intangibles are worth it to me.
Thanks again. - John
P.S. Bonus pic to jog the memories of those who've met me.
05-13-2011, 04:18 PM
#56
Carrera GT: We’ve met. I was there when you ran that 1:50 at Infineon in the PDK C4S Cab. (case in point about laptimes btw, how much faster is a GT3?). But to your questions about price: I’m not looking at new cars. My blood is not quite that blue yet. I have a kid, a house, a swimming pool to fix, etc. You know… the important stuff! So really I was talking about selling my car and buying a used ’04 or ’07 GT3 (lots of debate between those, well covered elsewhere, no need to re-hash here). Hence my $30k-$50k figure was the initial outlay to upgrade, not depreciation. In exchange for that outlay, plus the sacrifice in street-utility, I would want a 2x improvement in fun at the track, not 1.1x. That is the genesis of all this hoo-hah. Trackdays are very important to me, but the car MUST do both. As I said earlier, track-only is a completely separate game.
And don’t throw me in the AMG E-class bucket. Sheesh. I pulled the A/C out of my 944S to save weight, and it was my only car at the time. I completely rebuilt the suspension too, all by myself. I drove it like that for years, all over Norcal, even to Buttonwillow in July at 104F. Currently, I have pulled the entire stereo (every damn wire) out of my 996C2 to save weight. I love it this way. Weight is anathema to me, but I love the toughness of Porsches so I will never go to Lotus-ville.
So really I was talking about selling my car and buying a used ’04 or ’07 GT3 (lots of debate between those, well covered elsewhere, no need to re-hash here). Hence my $30k-$50k figure was the initial outlay to upgrade, not depreciation. In exchange for that outlay, plus the sacrifice in street-utility, I would want a 2x improvement in fun at the track, not 1.1x. That is the genesis of all this hoo-hah. Trackdays are very important to me, but the car MUST do both. As I said earlier, track-only is a completely separate game.And don’t throw me in the AMG E-class bucket. Sheesh. I pulled the A/C out of my 944S to save weight, and it was my only car at the time. I completely rebuilt the suspension too, all by myself. I drove it like that for years, all over Norcal, even to Buttonwillow in July at 104F. Currently, I have pulled the entire stereo (every damn wire) out of my 996C2 to save weight. I love it this way. Weight is anathema to me, but I love the toughness of Porsches so I will never go to Lotus-ville.
I've tried to tell people to consider a PDK Carrera, but the time trial at Sears in a 3800lb luxo-barge has the unintended effect of being absurd and implausible! : )
I don't mean to insult someone by suggesting something like an AMG Black Series -- there are GT3 drivers who really enjoy the AMGs (there's a couple of guys who bring their AMGs and they're having all the fun factor, without the kidney belt for the drive home.) The more I think about it, the more I think many of us should be in a PDK Carrera and the GT3 is for the inveterate track junkies.
05-13-2011, 04:25 PM
#57
Burning Brakes
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Second, I disagree with those who say that the disadvantage of the Carrera is that you run out of things to learn, whereas in a GT3 there is so much more. Unless you collect your paychecks from a professional race team, I think you are fooling yourself. None of us will ever be done learning this sport. It is completely arrogant to say “I have learned everything I can from this car.” No. Put an instructor or a coach in the car next to you and after a few laps they will find something to improve and will make you faster. You can learn in a 1949 Chevy pickup. If you stop trying to learn, then the guy next to you who has a more open mind will get in the ’49 Chevy and go faster than you did.
You also have to consider how much modification is done to a Carrera compared to a GT3. A GT3 doesn't need too many things to be modified. Most Carreras do get more involved suspension upgrades that to make them have a character closer to a GT3. That also pushes up the limit of learning. But at that point a case can be made for a GT3.
If you absolutely need a car that you can regularly track and use on the street I would not unconditionally recommend a GT3. Too annoying on the street. I tried that with a track modified BMW M3. Once you start using track worthy shocks and springs on the street you start looking for another car as a daily driver. Once my M3 became track only I jumped into a GT3 to have a cooler track only toy.
Do you need a GT3 to enjoy the track? Not at all. It's a very expensive toy that is fairly expensive to run. There is no way around it. Is it great to have one? Hell, yes!
Between 996 and 997 mkI I would recommend the 996 as it is more of a driver's car. If you get close to mastering it you will drive circles around 997 mkI cars.
05-14-2011, 01:06 AM
#58
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I drive my GT3 on the weekends. The car is mostly stock (SW bypass, Wevo engine mounts, GT2 Buckets, Clubsport bar, Stoptech brakes) and except for the really stiff clutch the rest is very manageable.
I don't think the cost of running a GT3 is much different than a Carrera, other than the initial cost of purchasing the car. Pretty much all wear and tear items cost alike (not including engine and trans, which is not likely to get damaged so easily...).
I don't think the cost of running a GT3 is much different than a Carrera, other than the initial cost of purchasing the car. Pretty much all wear and tear items cost alike (not including engine and trans, which is not likely to get damaged so easily...).
05-14-2011, 01:20 AM
#59
GT3 player par excellence
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05-14-2011, 01:31 AM
#60
GT3 player par excellence
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