TeamDrugMoney

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Bottom line, I LOVE RENNLIST There are times this place cracks me up, when you can step back and take a look around!

Carrera GT

Too true. Sometimes you've got to have a laugh at how we all get a bit wrapped around the axle when it comes to being obsessed with driving cars.

Gofishracing

Addicted- what a stupid hobby-

cgomez

Exactly is all about people like US. One of the points about this test is what would the outcome be if a "normal" (???) person like one of us, frequent RL posters / tracktards /club racers, drives both cars (and being very familiar with both) the same day just as they came from the factory (We could have also posted my 4secs faster lap in the GT2 on Hoosiers but that's irrelevant to our point). BTW, I insist the GT2 is in perfect shape.

As per the NurburgRing, I'm not sure if you have driven there, but I go every year, and I would say the Nordschleife is LARGELY irrelevant as a predictor for RaceTrack performance. The NRing is a one of a kind "closed loop stage rally course". Porsche kills almost anything around the NRing b/c they do most of their development around that extremely bumpy/blind/off camber road/"track". I can think of 10-15 places where the Scuderia suspension will bottom out (Even Herr Schumi, who developed and setup the Scud had a massive shunt at Schwedenkreuz in a Scud). Nevertheless the NRing is my favorite and the only Trackday I do and enjoy nowadays, as I mostly now only race on the Tracks this side of the pond.

Therefore, I'm sure the GT2 would kill the Scud at the NRing (and I think Von Saurma has proven that already), but then also an M3 and M5 can be extremely fast cars around the NRing, but we all know they can't do more than 1.5 laps around any track we know before having NO brakes....

brutus143

Its sounds like the Porsche was well worn compared to a fresh Ferrari. Doesnt seem fair or even logical to test them against eachother if your looking for the best times. Id like to see them both on Hoosiers with the Porsche having atleast fresh brakes. Even better find a comparable 3500 mile GT2 for a real answer of who is faster.

cgomez

Seriously!!?? Wow! Do some of you really think 23k miles makes a well maintained car like the GT2 slower than when new?? (btw, if anything, it would be actually faster than a garage queen that has necer been driven hard) .....And that half worn pads make it slower lap time wise!?? ROTFLOL.....
The main factor is tires and both were the same age.
Why Hoosiers make the test equivalent? Why not other brand? And do you think Ferrari or Porsche sets their cars for Hoosiers? Yes, they will both be faster, but then you have to change a lot more other things to optimize for those tires, so then why not then test Cup Car vs Challenge (btw, in that case the Porsche is faster)

fc-racer

cgomez, thanks for posting up the comparison, the vids and the data, very cool of you to share this with all of us. The videos alone are awesome to watch; the Ferrari sounds great! I can never understand the critics out there, but they do provide a balanced view for those too lazy to form their own.

Carrera GT

I can't speak for others of course, but I don't think it's about about the engine or the car overall deteriorating in 20K miles (or 80K miles for that matter.) The brakes on that car were evidently weary (and PCCBs benefit from 50% pad thickness to insulate against heat soak ... the added rear bias really makes the rears work and cook.) Diffs in GT cars last about 5K miles before they go to 0%, maybe sooner on the track. Put a Guard in that GT2 of yours just for the joy of having it lock up on the exit and keep the rear of the car stable under heavy braking.

I don't know that any DOT slick would make it a fair fight, but at least the GT2 might be able to put down power in 2nd gear, plus there's the braking limits of the street factory issue Sport Cups and Corsas. Having done this on the 2010 GT3 RS, I wouldn't say you can go beyond the R6's without changing the suspension, but the car in stock trim can handle the Hooters. As far as the head to head driving goes on the day, I think both cars were limited by tires.

Fresh P50 pads, flush and bleed the brake fluid, fresh tires and use the 997.1 "race circuit" alignment ride height, camber and rear toe with zero front toe or a smidgen of toe out and the 997 GT3 is a much more capable car than as it arrives off the boat -- I'd imagine the GT2 even more so.

I'd give the Scuderia the same "prep" to keep it level. But from what I've read of Scuderia owners trying to make that car really work on the track, it's not so easy as just pads and tires.

AC coupe

There was no issue whatsoever with the brakes fading on the GT2, in fact brakes were stronger than on the Scud. Both cars were aligned for track as stated in the article. GT2 had the rear sway bar set to suit this particular track.

cgomez

OK, now I undertstand.... you didnt read the article. WE wrote that Both cars were setup for THAT track. It was not the first time at MMC. In the case of the GT2 it required running the rear swaybar stiffer than at any other track. In the Scud, there's no adjustable swaybars unfortunately so I couldnt dial out that last bit of understeer when the front tires got overworked.
The GT2 with the Mcpherson struts needs more front camber than the Scud with its more racecar-like double A -arms. Both cars had the right neg camber and toe settings.

Also, you have a lot of misconceptions from too much "bench bench-racing" (bench racing from the bench?). Heat soak is irrelevant in one lap,specially with such big brakes at CCBs as big as they come on this cars. Heat management is an issue when racing at 100% for multiple consecutive laps. BBKs don't make a car faster (maybe even slower from higher unsprung weight), the make it a better racecar (for racing: more consistent braking through the length of a race). The brakes on the GT2 performed and felt perfectly (and we wrote that); better than the Ferrari's. We just wore down the pads to below half life and didn't feel like compromising the rotors going after a few tenths better lap.

Performance is ALWAYS limited by tires; ANY tires. There's not such thing as ENDLESS grip tires. It might feel like that, if you drive at 8-9/10ths. All tires have a limit. The OEM suspensions are better tuned to the limit of street tires they come with.

Stevenfl

Cgomez just schooled CarreraGT

Carrera GT

No issue a all?

"I was going for another hot lap after cooling things down, but some loud resonance noise started coming out from the rear. Checked in the pits and we had very little rear pads left"

Carrera GT

You've perhaps read my last post a tad quickly -- I was addressing your mistaken assumption about any post here suggesting the mileage on the odometer mattered other than as a reference point for the LSD and brakes. I didn't call for big brakes, I was referencing the fact that you ran out of brakes on the day, not on one lap, in the GT2. You concluded with the GT2 not by saying it was perfect but by noting that it had started making noises and that the diff was tired. Perhaps you want to change those words in the story?

"I was going for another hot lap after cooling things down, but some loud resonance noise started coming out from the rear. Checked in the pits and we had very little rear pads left"

"After 23Kmiles I think the LSD might be not at its best"

I wasn't suggesting tires would be endless, but as you note in the text, choosing a Hoosier would have allowed the GT2 to put down its power.

The reference to heat soak was just the 50% wear limit for the pads to insulate the rotors.

Anyway, your post has taken a decidedly rude tone with insinuations about my driving rather than discussing your story, so you can assume your blog has lost one reader, though I'm sure you won't notice any revenue losses in your Google ad clicks.

If you want to continue to promote your site here at Rennlist, I think the correct way is to be a site sponsor or pay for a banner.

AC coupe

But Carrera GT, the point was to match (as much as possible for non free car getting ''not real journalists'') cars as in a rational way. Could it have been even better? yeah, I would have loved to have the track all for ourselves with a crew and set of race tires for each car for comparison. How about factory engineers setting tire pressures between runs? that would have been cool right?

In reality though I think the laps that were achieved are, aside from being lap ''records'' for street tire GT2s and Scuds, a good representation of those cars on that track. Would you be happier if the GT2 had come out 6/10th ahead? tell you what, pay us the cost of running the same test at the Glen and I can almost guarantee you will be happy with the results!

cgomez

I never said "running out brakes", which is what YOU wrote. Brake pads below 50% still brake at 100%. Noise doesn't hinder performance. My "rude"(?) comment refers to this type of statements/assertions that you constantly make, which are absolutely not true and incorrect and anyone with enough track/racing experience knows that.

Also, a lot of what we describe from both car refers to feel, and things like a better LSD make the car more comfortable to drive at the limit but not necessarily faster as one can always compensate/correct. If you look and understand the actual data you will see that GT2 outbraked the Scud, but it did moved a lot more laterally side to side, and it also outaccelerated the Scud at low speeds/gears.