cgomez

It would be great if you can really show me some light on how to do it faster in same cars, same conditions, OEM rubber, but I haven't seen a faster time for a Scuderia in the stock rubber 9There's a few high 2:34s vids out there).

If you are going by times posted by modified cars (not necessarily more power) or racecars, then that doesn't count. It is a whole different game. I can post almost the same laptimes in my H Stock Cayman S on old hoosiers that has 235hp less than the GT2.

AC coupe

I think Fernando Alonso would kick Daman's butt!

iLLM3

I have witnessed you do it in the Cayman as well (2:34), and how is his post even relevant to this test? I have ran under 2:30 on r comps in my GT2 without even slicks, but how does that even matter when compared to two stock cars? Some people just love to 'toot' their own horn...

Musante too?

chopperzz

so the test also shows that 1 second faster is close to 100K. wow.

what would be cool is a car by car modification ladder, then seeing the results.

Slicks, do 3 laps.
brakes, do 3 laps. etc.

Very good write up, i'll be following your website from now on. cool

AC coupe

That is a very cool idea!

GT

i wonder if the GT2 also had 6k miles instead of 23k whether the outcome would be different or not.. Suspension shocks (plus maybe certain other suspension bits) are not the same after 23k miles in my experience..

cgomez

Maybe, but not significant. I never drive on the street with PASM in Sport. Only use it in "stiff" mode at the track, and they feel almost like when "new", plus MMC is a very smooth track. Also the Car is well maintained by Spencer *** at SpeedSport, and every bushing or suspension component that has shown any wear has been replaced.
The only component where I see some degradation is the LSD; but not even when new felt as good as the Scud's. The Gearbox and Diff is the biggest night / day difference between the Ferrari and the Porsche (both in feel and performance).

Carrera GT

What a load. Two dissimilar cars with about the same weight and power; one with torque and one with a paddle shifting conventional box. But one costs $300K and one costs less than $200K. Comparing them is banal to say the least.

Declaring the Ferrari -- what's the lap time at the Nurburgring? -- to be the superior track car is idiotic. If the test can't be done with a driver that's capable of extracting performance from a turbo 911, it's just a subjective day at the track to blast around and talk about cars. Fine.

These people take themselves far too seriously to bring this kind of claptrap to the Web and pretentiously compare their "results" to the recognized media.

GT

my lsd in my modified turbo (with all CUP suspension bits) was at almost 0% after only 18k miles and 5 trackdays.. Had to rebuild it to 50% subsequently.
Also I thought you mentioned the lsd diff of the GT2 and the way it puts power down was the best in the business?

Rick DeMan

I would hope so..!! If not then one of us is in the wrong job.....

Gofishracing

I'm just a Little Fish and probably should have kept my comments to myself being only a Guest at all the Events I ran at Monticello Motor Club. I think jealosy influenced my comments on the video but I'm available for coaching.

Stevenfl

Some people just can't seem to stomach the idea that there are better cars than Porsche out there. Wake up.

Nizer

Yup, that's probably what all the other ALMS guys are thinking as well..... Welcome to Rennlist.

ANOTHER SEASON, ANOTHER CHAMPIONSHIP FOR BERGMEISTER
Title is fifth in six seasons for Porsche standout

2010-10-11

In October 2005, the thought had never occurred to Jörg Bergmeister. One American Le Mans Series championship was a remarkable accomplishment. But two? Three or four? Five???

“I didn’t think too much of it back then,” said the German of his first of what is now five driving titles in the American Le Mans Series presented by Tequila Patrón. “That year was tough because I had been dropped by the factory the year before. It was the first season for myself and Patrick in the Petersen/White Lightning car. But in the end, that was very satisfying.”

Bergmeister, a mainstay at Flying Lizard Motorsports since 2007, tied Olivier Beretta’s mark for most career titles by a driver with four wins in this year’s American Le Mans Series presented by Tequila Patrón championship. Were it not for an illness that caused the Porsche works pilot to miss Sebring in 2004, we might be talking about a sixth championship for Bergmeister. Alex Job Racing seatmate Timo Bernhard went on to win that year with Bergmeister third in the standings.

“Having the first championship out of the way is always important,” said Bergmeister, who successfully defending his title in 2006 – again with Petersen/White Lightning. “It makes you realize you did the right things with the team and gives you that confidence. You learn what it means to win that championship. I had done it in other series, but this was my first in long-distance endurance championship. I was lucky enough to have a great team back then with White Lightning. And of course having Patrick as my teammate was a great help as well.”

Bergmeister won the 2008 championship with Wolf Henzler, and he re-united with Long in 2009 for more hardware. During that stretch, Bergmeister won 14 times in class; he leads all drivers with 33 GT2/GT victories. Much of that success, he said, goes to a reinvigorated effort from Porsche following the 2007 season. If you’ll recall, Ferrari and Risi Competizione dominated that year with eight wins in 12 events.

“We were fighting with the Ferrari for the championship but we weren’t on the same level. Then in 2008 Porsche stepped the game up,” Bergmeister said. The next year, things started to jell in the Lizard camp. The team has been close to dominant since.

“In the end, the more stability you have within the team the better you get. It always takes awhile to get down the communication between each other,” Bergmeister added. “It takes an entire team and I think that’s where the Lizards are so good right now. They are looking at the small details and putting them together.”

It’s a good thing given how the competition in the class has advanced over the last three years. It culminated this year with Porsche going head-to-head with BMW, Chevrolet, Ferrari, Ford and Jaguar.

The competition was unreal,” Bergmeister said. “At the beginning of the year, we thought the Corvette would dominate after what we saw at the end of last year. But everyone within the team and Porsche always stepped up. We weren’t the fastest but in the pits and strategy we were the best.”

As for the deciding factors in winning the driver championship again? “Probably the races after Mid-Ohio,” he said. “Road America and Mosport were not our best tracks because of the long straights. But we came out of there with a second-place and a victory. That was the most memorable part of it. You can never give up.”

AC coupe

Wow. I say wow because that's not the takeaway from the review at all, If anything the test was essentially a tie with the differences being more of character than chronometer.
As far as the purchase price, I say that's largely irrelevant, I'm guessing in the very vast majority of cases if you can swing a GT2, you can figure out how to get a scud if that's what you want.

Finally, we published the raw data files, you will not see any "real" publications do that, EVER. You cannot have any more transparency than that.

As far as ability, I can safely say that ALL the members of Axis of Oversteer have more ability and experience tracking cars than 98% of the "real" motoring press who get press junketed around the world to drive three laps and then write 10000 words on the car's bahaviour at the "edge". As many of you I'm sure, I can think of only two journalists whose word I will take without much question: Chris Harris and Tiff Needell.

Cheers

Carrera GT

I'm sure you're all very competent steerers, maybe some of you even have a podiums and lap records or professional careers in the resume. And yes, most of the motoring press does little more than cut and paste from the press kit, stand in line all day and take their three laps with everyone else on the junket. I don't see either point pertaining to the tone or assertions in your comparison.

Where do we go if I really start digging into the mistakes? You've brought a 20K mile, three year old car to the track with worn out brakes, a questionable diff and asking a torque monster 911 to tip toe around on street rubber in the hands of amateur drivers. The review uses expressions like "throttle pinned" and describing wild oversteer at the same time as talking about best lap times. Meanwhile the Scuderia is driving around with paddle-shifting and an electronic diff that's -- rightly -- recognized as doing a lot to compensate for driver errors. It's just not a credible comparison.

If you say the intended takeaway is a fine dividing line and money no object, well, the written word is an ambiguous thing, but I see the bulk of the thumbs up and accolades going to the Scuderia. Hell, it's a sensational car, that's really not the point of my rebuttal at all, I'm just no agreeing that the comparison was realistic or legitimate.

If, as you reference, someone like Timothy Needell says the Scuderia is as quick as the Enzo (an incredibly hard story to swallow, but that's what he does say) then, having seen him make the comparison under the best conditions available to a humble media scribe ex pro racer, I believe him and, at the time, the local Ferrari dealer took my deposit and I waited in line. Of course, the economic sky did fall and like many, I wished Ferrari all the best in their recovery and went on my way.

Conversely, even if Chris (choking down the jealousy for his lifestyle) Harris said the GT2 was the bee's knees -- I think he reserves that honor for the new GT3 RS, as do all the parrot journo's -- I'd take it with a grain of salt since he's too much in the factory and has his bread buttered. I still say he's honest, but you can't begrudge anyone for not biting the hand that feeds, especially if it means a seat on the team with Walter Rohrl at the 24hr.

As for disclosing raw data, that's pretty cool, not too many people feel like putting their data out there. Still, I'd rather see both cars in professional hands at the Nurburgring (since that's the battle ground and public test bench of choice) and see the numbers. Again, these are "sort of" the current offerings from Porsche and Ferrari, but the comparison is a good two years late and basically flawed in the attempt. A fun track day with some great cars and skilled drivers, but not a comparison of the cars. The real deal will be the GT2 RS against whatever hot rod version of the 458 emerges. Still probably not close in price, but clearly head to head competitors for money-no-object driver's cars.

And stopping to think about price of a $200K GT2 vs a $300K (plus) Scuderia, setting aside depreciation and operating costs, if $100K or 50% of MSRP is neither here nor there in your reckoning, I'll forward my paypal address so you can drop some pocket change my way, thanks.