SEIZIS NIKOLAOS

Hi,

I currently own the following cars:

Porsche GT3 RS
Porsche Turbo
Porsche GT2
and Ferrari Scuderia

and all I can say is go for the Scuderia! Only if you would track your car a lot I would go for the GT3 RS because of reliability reasons and servis costs.

I wouldn´t compare the 458 Italia with the Scuderia unless you want to wait for the 458 Italia Scuderia.

Sorry for the short reply

Greetings
Nick

silverboy

I'd love to be in your predicament gmolinari! :-)

Jon70

I seem to be in the minority here, but I really like the looks of the 458, at least from the photos. The nose of the car leaves something to be desired, but I am sure they will rectify that in the Scuderia version. Hopefully Rad will chime in here as he has quite of bit of experience and knowledge of the Scuderia.

LastMezger

I've never understood why these types of criticisms are leveled at F1, SMG, et.al. These are not automatic gearboxes though they have settings to allow to TRY and work as such. As you suggest they work well in manual mode. In automatic it helps to "drive" them...slight lift changing gears, rolling into the throttle at the right time. If anything they require as much effort and concentration to make them drive smoothly as changing the gears manually. But I kinda like that.

As for the original question...I'm kinda likin' that new Lambo Gallardo LP570-4 Superleggera.

gmolinari

I have no intention of driving a paddle shifted car in automatic emulation. In manual mode I think the technology at this point is mature enough in both the F1 superfast2 or dual clutch transmissions to be almost faultless for spirited driving. Which is of course the whole point of this kind of car ...

alvinjamur

I've had about 500 miles on the '10 RS and about 600 miles on the '08 Scuderia I own.
Here are my opinions (premature for sure as I don't believe either car has really broken
in and I have nowhere near the skills to give these cars a true ride!).

Using adjectives and short descriptives only

Scuderia : Less involved, Refined, Gearbox and electronic wizardry dominate, Less practical
than 'RS to drive on city streets (no lift!)

'10 GT3 RS : More involved, RAW, sure there is lots of wizardry but is quietly masked, Seems to
command more respect to drive from the driver

Thus far, I seem to enjoy the '10 RS more than the Scuderia. Day before yesterday, I drove both
of them back to back and definitely preferred the '10 RS. However, these observations come from
a rookie (me!) and a very senior motorsport person that I know well pointed out to me that any
observations I make about the two cars (Scud and '10 RS) would not be truly valid because neither
of them has been broken in and I'm definitely not pushing them anywhere near their limits. In fact,
I'm sure that the true limits on these cars cannot be approached for the majority of time by
most people that drive them. After all, it was Denis Jenkinson's observation in the "Racing Driver"
that there are perhaps 15-20 drivers in the world at any time, that could be considered the
Renoirs, Gaudis, Picassos of high speed driving. More often than not, cars like these tend to
drive the driver. Its truly art that a driver possesses that can give the car a ride....

- aLV

gmolinari

What about CARRERA GT!?

malmasri

^ maybe not but it will be percieved by your neighbors as a sports car sans the attitude

gmolinari

malmasri - sorry dont understand your message. what do you mean 'maybe not'?

NJ-GT

Here is my take on the Scuderia compared to my 07 RS.

The 07 RS (and very likely the 10 RS) are cars that come well setup from the factory. You just need track tires, re-check the alignment, flush the brake fluid, get track brake pads, and the car is ready to go. It is a very capable car. The GT3/GT3RS/GT2 are cars that are difficult to get a lot better with go-fast parts.

Porsche went from 415Hp in the 07 RS to 450 Hp in the new 2010 RS. I have Traqmate data from the 996 GT3 (my highly modified car), the 07 997 GT3 RS and the 09 Scuderia. The Scuderia outperforms the two Porsche by a mile, it is not even close, but there is small problem here.

A bone stock Scuderia is very fast on straight line, and brakes sooner than my two previous Porsches, but it cannot keep up it with the 996 and 997 GT3 on the turns (this didn't take me long to figure out). I started measuring tire temperatures, playing with different camber/toe settings, and measuring suspension travel. I found out that the stock car driven to the limits was running out of suspension (essentially hitting the bump stops front and rear). I have pictures, measurements and calculation determining the suspension problems.

The F430 uses a very low wheel rate, but it has a superior suspension design than any recent Porsche except the Carrera GT (a car that performs better than its crappy PS2 tires). Ferrari made the springs too soft on the Scuderia, there are 4 documented sets of factory springs for the Scuderia and they are all soft. With the help of a few SCCA friends, plus input from 3 race teams running F430, and my own calculations, we found a range of springs that could work well with my car.

I even installed Moton 3-way adjustable shocks under the assumption that I could not use standard aftermarket springs, due to the unique inner diameter of the stock Titanium springs (only the rear springs are made of titanium). However, the stock struts can handle 2.5"ID springs if one removes the plastic (delrin) useless spacers that are supposed to reduce noise, you don't need noise reduction if you use tenders, good isolators and stiff main springs.

I have tested spring rates of up to 1600# on the Scuderia, and the car doesn't feel stiff on the streets, it is an ok ride.

The Scuderia only has two problems: soft springs and skinny wheels/tires.

The problem with skinny tires is bad as well, once the suspension has been stiffened, then you can start playing with tire compounds and sizes and compare results. At one point on a 60 secs course, the crappy Pirelli Corsa System (235/295) were 6.5 seconds slower than Hoosier A6, I never saw such gap when running my 996 and 997 GT3 on MPSC tires (race-spec) vs. Hoosier A6.

Stock vs. Stock, with a good driver, the 2010 RS should out perform the Scuderia on the track (lap times), because the RS has a better suspension setup from the factory. Stock vs. Stock the Scuderia accelerates and brakes better. Keep in mind that the Scuderia is a car with 503Hp and it is also 150 lbs lighter than a 2010 GT3 RS, you can get a lighter RS by deleting AC and getting PCCB, you can also get a lighter Scuderia by getting a decent number of carbon fiber body panels, radio delete, light wheels, even manual windows.

In regards to depreciation, don't expect the 2010 RS to do as well as the 2007 RS did, 2011 RS are available at MSRP, no more $75k mark-ups even after a year (as the 07 did), new 2010 RS will be cheaper, and used 2010 RS even cheaper, pushing the 07/08 RS down even more. Expect used 2010 RS in the $120k range in a few months, and the used 07 RS getting on the $80k.

The Scuderia already took the big hit, nobody is paying the $450k-$499k that some people paid 2 years ago, the market is about half of that. Some Scuds can be had for under $200k today, and that makes the gap with a nicely optioned 2011 GT3 RS pretty damn close.

The F1 transmission in the Scuderia (not the one in the F430) has been flawless. I have a dual clutch M3 V8 and shifting response and speed is not even close to the Scuderia. For street driving, the Scuderia F1 transmission is fine, a little jerky if you drive in Race mode (why would you on street traffic?), but on soft mode it is very gentle. The Scuderia is a lot faster with all the stability and traction controls off, but few people can drive it near the limits on this configuration.

At 8/10th or under the Scuderia is easier to drive than the 07 GT3 RS. Beyond 8/10th the Scuderia is more difficult to drive.

On Michelin Sport Cups (265/345) I lapped the 07 RS around Cal Speedway ROVAL at 1:52 highs, the same day I lapped the RS on Michelin slicks at 1:47.8. A 5 secs difference between race-spec MPSC and Cup slicks. On R888 (skinny 235/295) I lapped the same racetrack at 1:48 with the Scuderia, these tires have similar grip to the race-spec MPSC, and that shows the Scuderia is about 4 secs faster despite of the small tires. I also ran a 1:46.9 on old Hoosier A6, and will be testing the Scuderia on Cup slicks later on, expecting to run on the 1:43s range (around 4 secs faster than the 07 RS on the same tires).

My Scuderia has been more reliable than the 996 GT3 and 997 GT3 RS.

I have videos being on-track with the 07 RS and 09 Scud against C6 Z06 and Viper ACR. The Viper ACR will blow the doors of the 07 RS so easily, and I expect the 2010 GT3 RS to get the same. The ACR barely pulls on the Scuderia up to 110-120mph, at which point the Scuderia gains on the Viper from there on.

The acceleration in the Scuderia is impressive, 1/4 mile almost one second faster than a 2010 GT3, 0-60mph almost one second faster as well.

It is obvious that the Scuderia would attract more cell phones cameras than a 997 GT3 RS. The Scuderia has the lines of an exotic car, the 997 GT3 RS the lines of the 997 Carrera.

There are too many thing that Porsche could learn from Ferrari when making a lightweight car. The Scuderia produces twice the downforce of the 2010 GT3 RS without using the drag of a big wing. All the Scuderia body panels are aluminum, except the bumpers. There is massive use of carbon fiber everywhere, diffuser, headlight housings, front spoiler, door panels, door sills, dashboard, center console, steering wheel, engine intake, engine dust panels, rear lid, rocker panels. No subframes are used, everything in the suspension bolts to the frame itself.

If you drive the Scuderia at night on a lonely canyon road, you can see the bright white lights shinning on the rearview mirror product of the blue flames coming from the exhaust pipes.

If you source the spare parts and consumables from the right suppliers, you get about the same prices and sometimes better than Porsche parts. Ferrari CCB rotors are cheaper than Porsche PCCB rotors, and I find them both at dealer's cost. Brake pads are about the same price as the P50 Pagid Green for the PCCB cars, brake fluid is the same (SRF), oil changes are almost free on both cars (I do that myself), wheels and tires about the same. The clutch costs 50% more in the Scuderia and replacing it is an easy job.

My advice: Test drive both and decide.

Jon70

Rad,
Thank you for the more than detailed review. I did not realize Scuderias had dropped below $200K, the lowest I've seen asking-wise is $219K. Also, do you know if there are any differences between the 08 and 09 versions?

NJ-GT

Late 2008 and 2009 are identical. Early 08 have different programming on the F1 transmission, and the two main ECU, but you can request the updates to your dealer. The 08 were not shifting at the advertised 60ms under high rpm acceleration, most drivers don't even noticed but some did and got that covered under warranty.

Early 2008 are a little heavier, because they don't have the carbon package. The carbon package includes: front spoiler, engine panels, rear diffuser and headlight housings, this package reduced 34 lbs.

There is a nice post on the Ferrarichat exotic car section documenting weights of several exotic cars on the same scales, F40, F50, Enzo, Carrera GT, Stradale, Scuderia, 997.1 GT3 RS, etc.

Don't follow on asking prices. The way I determine current Scuderia selling prices is $250k for 09, $235k for later 08, $220k for early 08s.

Then reduce $2 per mile driven on the car. No stripe seems to be a $10k hit. That's a ballpark for selling price, then go down from there based on motivated seller, colors, options, etc. Red cars keep the highest value, anything non-Red sells cheaper.

So, an early 08 on Black/Blue/White/Yellow with no stripe and 5,000 miles cannot fetch more than $200k, regardless of asking price. A plain 2008 F430 moves around $160k (asking prices are higher) and $175k for a pristine regular 09 F430, making the Scuderia a bargain, compared to the price gap when new for the F430 and Scuderia.

If you wait another year, you should be able to get them $30k cheaper than now. The 2010 GT3 RS should take a similar hit in 12 months.

sws1

Care to PM me the PCCB source?

gmolinari

NJ-GT thanks for that truly epic response and the great pricing data. I am going to test drive a scud tomorrow. Harder to find a '10 RS to even ride in unless a friendly rennlister in the area wants to give me a ride (hint).

what month do you consider later vs earlier 08?

to be clear, was the carbon package a pay option on these cars or did it just become standard in late 08/09?

Jon70

Also, I thought I read somewhere that there were changes to the heat shields from 08 to 09.