Compare: Scuderia vs '10 RS
04-13-2010, 06:13 PM
#46
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Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
NJ-GT thanks for that truly epic response and the great pricing data. I am going to test drive a scud tomorrow. Harder to find a '10 RS to even ride in unless a friendly rennlister in the area wants to give me a ride (hint).
what month do you consider later vs earlier 08?
to be clear, was the carbon package a pay option on these cars or did it just become standard in late 08/09?
what month do you consider later vs earlier 08?
to be clear, was the carbon package a pay option on these cars or did it just become standard in late 08/09?
The heat shield for the sides of the muffler are a little taller in the 09 cars, and they are offered under warranty for the 08 cars. The exhaust and engine heat decolorates the engine carbon panels. My 09 car with the newer heat shields got the panels replaced under warranty as the CF started to look faded. CF should not be used in the engine compartment, it is actually the resin and clear coat used for CF that fades (turns yellow/light brown) when exposed to sun light and heat.
04-13-2010, 09:40 PM
#48
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Here is my take on the Scuderia compared to my 07 RS.
The 07 RS (and very likely the 10 RS) are cars that come well setup from the factory. You just need track tires, re-check the alignment, flush the brake fluid, get track brake pads, and the car is ready to go. It is a very capable car. The GT3/GT3RS/GT2 are cars that are difficult to get a lot better with go-fast parts.
Porsche went from 415Hp in the 07 RS to 450 Hp in the new 2010 RS. I have Traqmate data from the 996 GT3 (my highly modified car), the 07 997 GT3 RS and the 09 Scuderia. The Scuderia outperforms the two Porsche by a mile, it is not even close, but there is small problem here.
A bone stock Scuderia is very fast on straight line, and brakes sooner than my two previous Porsches, but it cannot keep up it with the 996 and 997 GT3 on the turns (this didn't take me long to figure out). I started measuring tire temperatures, playing with different camber/toe settings, and measuring suspension travel. I found out that the stock car driven to the limits was running out of suspension (essentially hitting the bump stops front and rear). I have pictures, measurements and calculation determining the suspension problems.
The F430 uses a very low wheel rate, but it has a superior suspension design than any recent Porsche except the Carrera GT (a car that performs better than its crappy PS2 tires). Ferrari made the springs too soft on the Scuderia, there are 4 documented sets of factory springs for the Scuderia and they are all soft. With the help of a few SCCA friends, plus input from 3 race teams running F430, and my own calculations, we found a range of springs that could work well with my car.
I even installed Moton 3-way adjustable shocks under the assumption that I could not use standard aftermarket springs, due to the unique inner diameter of the stock Titanium springs (only the rear springs are made of titanium). However, the stock struts can handle 2.5"ID springs if one removes the plastic (delrin) useless spacers that are supposed to reduce noise, you don't need noise reduction if you use tenders, good isolators and stiff main springs.
I have tested spring rates of up to 1600# on the Scuderia, and the car doesn't feel stiff on the streets, it is an ok ride.
The Scuderia only has two problems: soft springs and skinny wheels/tires.
The problem with skinny tires is bad as well, once the suspension has been stiffened, then you can start playing with tire compounds and sizes and compare results. At one point on a 60 secs course, the crappy Pirelli Corsa System (235/295) were 6.5 seconds slower than Hoosier A6, I never saw such gap when running my 996 and 997 GT3 on MPSC tires (race-spec) vs. Hoosier A6.
Stock vs. Stock, with a good driver, the 2010 RS should out perform the Scuderia on the track (lap times), because the RS has a better suspension setup from the factory. Stock vs. Stock the Scuderia accelerates and brakes better. Keep in mind that the Scuderia is a car with 503Hp and it is also 150 lbs lighter than a 2010 GT3 RS, you can get a lighter RS by deleting AC and getting PCCB, you can also get a lighter Scuderia by getting a decent number of carbon fiber body panels, radio delete, light wheels, even manual windows.
In regards to depreciation, don't expect the 2010 RS to do as well as the 2007 RS did, 2011 RS are available at MSRP, no more $75k mark-ups even after a year (as the 07 did), new 2010 RS will be cheaper, and used 2010 RS even cheaper, pushing the 07/08 RS down even more. Expect used 2010 RS in the $120k range in a few months, and the used 07 RS getting on the $80k.
The Scuderia already took the big hit, nobody is paying the $450k-$499k that some people paid 2 years ago, the market is about half of that. Some Scuds can be had for under $200k today, and that makes the gap with a nicely optioned 2011 GT3 RS pretty damn close.
The F1 transmission in the Scuderia (not the one in the F430) has been flawless. I have a dual clutch M3 V8 and shifting response and speed is not even close to the Scuderia. For street driving, the Scuderia F1 transmission is fine, a little jerky if you drive in Race mode (why would you on street traffic?), but on soft mode it is very gentle. The Scuderia is a lot faster with all the stability and traction controls off, but few people can drive it near the limits on this configuration.
At 8/10th or under the Scuderia is easier to drive than the 07 GT3 RS. Beyond 8/10th the Scuderia is more difficult to drive.
On Michelin Sport Cups (265/345) I lapped the 07 RS around Cal Speedway ROVAL at 1:52 highs, the same day I lapped the RS on Michelin slicks at 1:47.8. A 5 secs difference between race-spec MPSC and Cup slicks. On R888 (skinny 235/295) I lapped the same racetrack at 1:48 with the Scuderia, these tires have similar grip to the race-spec MPSC, and that shows the Scuderia is about 4 secs faster despite of the small tires. I also ran a 1:46.9 on old Hoosier A6, and will be testing the Scuderia on Cup slicks later on, expecting to run on the 1:43s range (around 4 secs faster than the 07 RS on the same tires).
My Scuderia has been more reliable than the 996 GT3 and 997 GT3 RS.
I have videos being on-track with the 07 RS and 09 Scud against C6 Z06 and Viper ACR. The Viper ACR will blow the doors of the 07 RS so easily, and I expect the 2010 GT3 RS to get the same. The ACR barely pulls on the Scuderia up to 110-120mph, at which point the Scuderia gains on the Viper from there on.
The acceleration in the Scuderia is impressive, 1/4 mile almost one second faster than a 2010 GT3, 0-60mph almost one second faster as well.
It is obvious that the Scuderia would attract more cell phones cameras than a 997 GT3 RS. The Scuderia has the lines of an exotic car, the 997 GT3 RS the lines of the 997 Carrera.
There are too many thing that Porsche could learn from Ferrari when making a lightweight car. The Scuderia produces twice the downforce of the 2010 GT3 RS without using the drag of a big wing. All the Scuderia body panels are aluminum, except the bumpers. There is massive use of carbon fiber everywhere, diffuser, headlight housings, front spoiler, door panels, door sills, dashboard, center console, steering wheel, engine intake, engine dust panels, rear lid, rocker panels. No subframes are used, everything in the suspension bolts to the frame itself.
If you drive the Scuderia at night on a lonely canyon road, you can see the bright white lights shinning on the rearview mirror product of the blue flames coming from the exhaust pipes.
If you source the spare parts and consumables from the right suppliers, you get about the same prices and sometimes better than Porsche parts. Ferrari CCB rotors are cheaper than Porsche PCCB rotors, and I find them both at dealer's cost. Brake pads are about the same price as the P50 Pagid Green for the PCCB cars, brake fluid is the same (SRF), oil changes are almost free on both cars (I do that myself), wheels and tires about the same. The clutch costs 50% more in the Scuderia and replacing it is an easy job.
My advice: Test drive both and decide.
The 07 RS (and very likely the 10 RS) are cars that come well setup from the factory. You just need track tires, re-check the alignment, flush the brake fluid, get track brake pads, and the car is ready to go. It is a very capable car. The GT3/GT3RS/GT2 are cars that are difficult to get a lot better with go-fast parts.
Porsche went from 415Hp in the 07 RS to 450 Hp in the new 2010 RS. I have Traqmate data from the 996 GT3 (my highly modified car), the 07 997 GT3 RS and the 09 Scuderia. The Scuderia outperforms the two Porsche by a mile, it is not even close, but there is small problem here.
A bone stock Scuderia is very fast on straight line, and brakes sooner than my two previous Porsches, but it cannot keep up it with the 996 and 997 GT3 on the turns (this didn't take me long to figure out). I started measuring tire temperatures, playing with different camber/toe settings, and measuring suspension travel. I found out that the stock car driven to the limits was running out of suspension (essentially hitting the bump stops front and rear). I have pictures, measurements and calculation determining the suspension problems.
The F430 uses a very low wheel rate, but it has a superior suspension design than any recent Porsche except the Carrera GT (a car that performs better than its crappy PS2 tires). Ferrari made the springs too soft on the Scuderia, there are 4 documented sets of factory springs for the Scuderia and they are all soft. With the help of a few SCCA friends, plus input from 3 race teams running F430, and my own calculations, we found a range of springs that could work well with my car.
I even installed Moton 3-way adjustable shocks under the assumption that I could not use standard aftermarket springs, due to the unique inner diameter of the stock Titanium springs (only the rear springs are made of titanium). However, the stock struts can handle 2.5"ID springs if one removes the plastic (delrin) useless spacers that are supposed to reduce noise, you don't need noise reduction if you use tenders, good isolators and stiff main springs.
I have tested spring rates of up to 1600# on the Scuderia, and the car doesn't feel stiff on the streets, it is an ok ride.
The Scuderia only has two problems: soft springs and skinny wheels/tires.
The problem with skinny tires is bad as well, once the suspension has been stiffened, then you can start playing with tire compounds and sizes and compare results. At one point on a 60 secs course, the crappy Pirelli Corsa System (235/295) were 6.5 seconds slower than Hoosier A6, I never saw such gap when running my 996 and 997 GT3 on MPSC tires (race-spec) vs. Hoosier A6.
Stock vs. Stock, with a good driver, the 2010 RS should out perform the Scuderia on the track (lap times), because the RS has a better suspension setup from the factory. Stock vs. Stock the Scuderia accelerates and brakes better. Keep in mind that the Scuderia is a car with 503Hp and it is also 150 lbs lighter than a 2010 GT3 RS, you can get a lighter RS by deleting AC and getting PCCB, you can also get a lighter Scuderia by getting a decent number of carbon fiber body panels, radio delete, light wheels, even manual windows.
In regards to depreciation, don't expect the 2010 RS to do as well as the 2007 RS did, 2011 RS are available at MSRP, no more $75k mark-ups even after a year (as the 07 did), new 2010 RS will be cheaper, and used 2010 RS even cheaper, pushing the 07/08 RS down even more. Expect used 2010 RS in the $120k range in a few months, and the used 07 RS getting on the $80k.
The Scuderia already took the big hit, nobody is paying the $450k-$499k that some people paid 2 years ago, the market is about half of that. Some Scuds can be had for under $200k today, and that makes the gap with a nicely optioned 2011 GT3 RS pretty damn close.
The F1 transmission in the Scuderia (not the one in the F430) has been flawless. I have a dual clutch M3 V8 and shifting response and speed is not even close to the Scuderia. For street driving, the Scuderia F1 transmission is fine, a little jerky if you drive in Race mode (why would you on street traffic?), but on soft mode it is very gentle. The Scuderia is a lot faster with all the stability and traction controls off, but few people can drive it near the limits on this configuration.
At 8/10th or under the Scuderia is easier to drive than the 07 GT3 RS. Beyond 8/10th the Scuderia is more difficult to drive.
On Michelin Sport Cups (265/345) I lapped the 07 RS around Cal Speedway ROVAL at 1:52 highs, the same day I lapped the RS on Michelin slicks at 1:47.8. A 5 secs difference between race-spec MPSC and Cup slicks. On R888 (skinny 235/295) I lapped the same racetrack at 1:48 with the Scuderia, these tires have similar grip to the race-spec MPSC, and that shows the Scuderia is about 4 secs faster despite of the small tires. I also ran a 1:46.9 on old Hoosier A6, and will be testing the Scuderia on Cup slicks later on, expecting to run on the 1:43s range (around 4 secs faster than the 07 RS on the same tires).
My Scuderia has been more reliable than the 996 GT3 and 997 GT3 RS.
I have videos being on-track with the 07 RS and 09 Scud against C6 Z06 and Viper ACR. The Viper ACR will blow the doors of the 07 RS so easily, and I expect the 2010 GT3 RS to get the same. The ACR barely pulls on the Scuderia up to 110-120mph, at which point the Scuderia gains on the Viper from there on.
The acceleration in the Scuderia is impressive, 1/4 mile almost one second faster than a 2010 GT3, 0-60mph almost one second faster as well.
It is obvious that the Scuderia would attract more cell phones cameras than a 997 GT3 RS. The Scuderia has the lines of an exotic car, the 997 GT3 RS the lines of the 997 Carrera.
There are too many thing that Porsche could learn from Ferrari when making a lightweight car. The Scuderia produces twice the downforce of the 2010 GT3 RS without using the drag of a big wing. All the Scuderia body panels are aluminum, except the bumpers. There is massive use of carbon fiber everywhere, diffuser, headlight housings, front spoiler, door panels, door sills, dashboard, center console, steering wheel, engine intake, engine dust panels, rear lid, rocker panels. No subframes are used, everything in the suspension bolts to the frame itself.
If you drive the Scuderia at night on a lonely canyon road, you can see the bright white lights shinning on the rearview mirror product of the blue flames coming from the exhaust pipes.
If you source the spare parts and consumables from the right suppliers, you get about the same prices and sometimes better than Porsche parts. Ferrari CCB rotors are cheaper than Porsche PCCB rotors, and I find them both at dealer's cost. Brake pads are about the same price as the P50 Pagid Green for the PCCB cars, brake fluid is the same (SRF), oil changes are almost free on both cars (I do that myself), wheels and tires about the same. The clutch costs 50% more in the Scuderia and replacing it is an easy job.
My advice: Test drive both and decide.
maybe they did it deliberatly in order to make some room for the next model and then boost about its laptimes??so youre saying stock for stock a 997gt3.2(should be black
will be faster even with the 60% rear bias?oh and thanks for the review on both cars.
04-13-2010, 10:06 PM
#50
Rennlist Member
Here is my take on the Scuderia compared to my 07 RS.
The 07 RS (and very likely the 10 RS) are cars that come well setup from the factory. You just need track tires, re-check the alignment, flush the brake fluid, get track brake pads, and the car is ready to go. It is a very capable car. The GT3/GT3RS/GT2 are cars that are difficult to get a lot better with go-fast parts.
Porsche went from 415Hp in the 07 RS to 450 Hp in the new 2010 RS. I have Traqmate data from the 996 GT3 (my highly modified car), the 07 997 GT3 RS and the 09 Scuderia. The Scuderia outperforms the two Porsche by a mile, it is not even close, but there is small problem here.
A bone stock Scuderia is very fast on straight line, and brakes sooner than my two previous Porsches, but it cannot keep up it with the 996 and 997 GT3 on the turns (this didn't take me long to figure out). I started measuring tire temperatures, playing with different camber/toe settings, and measuring suspension travel. I found out that the stock car driven to the limits was running out of suspension (essentially hitting the bump stops front and rear). I have pictures, measurements and calculation determining the suspension problems.
The F430 uses a very low wheel rate, but it has a superior suspension design than any recent Porsche except the Carrera GT (a car that performs better than its crappy PS2 tires). Ferrari made the springs too soft on the Scuderia, there are 4 documented sets of factory springs for the Scuderia and they are all soft. With the help of a few SCCA friends, plus input from 3 race teams running F430, and my own calculations, we found a range of springs that could work well with my car.
I even installed Moton 3-way adjustable shocks under the assumption that I could not use standard aftermarket springs, due to the unique inner diameter of the stock Titanium springs (only the rear springs are made of titanium). However, the stock struts can handle 2.5"ID springs if one removes the plastic (delrin) useless spacers that are supposed to reduce noise, you don't need noise reduction if you use tenders, good isolators and stiff main springs.
I have tested spring rates of up to 1600# on the Scuderia, and the car doesn't feel stiff on the streets, it is an ok ride.
The Scuderia only has two problems: soft springs and skinny wheels/tires.
The problem with skinny tires is bad as well, once the suspension has been stiffened, then you can start playing with tire compounds and sizes and compare results. At one point on a 60 secs course, the crappy Pirelli Corsa System (235/295) were 6.5 seconds slower than Hoosier A6, I never saw such gap when running my 996 and 997 GT3 on MPSC tires (race-spec) vs. Hoosier A6.
Stock vs. Stock, with a good driver, the 2010 RS should out perform the Scuderia on the track (lap times), because the RS has a better suspension setup from the factory. Stock vs. Stock the Scuderia accelerates and brakes better. Keep in mind that the Scuderia is a car with 503Hp and it is also 150 lbs lighter than a 2010 GT3 RS, you can get a lighter RS by deleting AC and getting PCCB, you can also get a lighter Scuderia by getting a decent number of carbon fiber body panels, radio delete, light wheels, even manual windows.
In regards to depreciation, don't expect the 2010 RS to do as well as the 2007 RS did, 2011 RS are available at MSRP, no more $75k mark-ups even after a year (as the 07 did), new 2010 RS will be cheaper, and used 2010 RS even cheaper, pushing the 07/08 RS down even more. Expect used 2010 RS in the $120k range in a few months, and the used 07 RS getting on the $80k.
The Scuderia already took the big hit, nobody is paying the $450k-$499k that some people paid 2 years ago, the market is about half of that. Some Scuds can be had for under $200k today, and that makes the gap with a nicely optioned 2011 GT3 RS pretty damn close.
The F1 transmission in the Scuderia (not the one in the F430) has been flawless. I have a dual clutch M3 V8 and shifting response and speed is not even close to the Scuderia. For street driving, the Scuderia F1 transmission is fine, a little jerky if you drive in Race mode (why would you on street traffic?), but on soft mode it is very gentle. The Scuderia is a lot faster with all the stability and traction controls off, but few people can drive it near the limits on this configuration.
At 8/10th or under the Scuderia is easier to drive than the 07 GT3 RS. Beyond 8/10th the Scuderia is more difficult to drive.
On Michelin Sport Cups (265/345) I lapped the 07 RS around Cal Speedway ROVAL at 1:52 highs, the same day I lapped the RS on Michelin slicks at 1:47.8. A 5 secs difference between race-spec MPSC and Cup slicks. On R888 (skinny 235/295) I lapped the same racetrack at 1:48 with the Scuderia, these tires have similar grip to the race-spec MPSC, and that shows the Scuderia is about 4 secs faster despite of the small tires. I also ran a 1:46.9 on old Hoosier A6, and will be testing the Scuderia on Cup slicks later on, expecting to run on the 1:43s range (around 4 secs faster than the 07 RS on the same tires).
My Scuderia has been more reliable than the 996 GT3 and 997 GT3 RS.
I have videos being on-track with the 07 RS and 09 Scud against C6 Z06 and Viper ACR. The Viper ACR will blow the doors of the 07 RS so easily, and I expect the 2010 GT3 RS to get the same. The ACR barely pulls on the Scuderia up to 110-120mph, at which point the Scuderia gains on the Viper from there on.
The acceleration in the Scuderia is impressive, 1/4 mile almost one second faster than a 2010 GT3, 0-60mph almost one second faster as well.
It is obvious that the Scuderia would attract more cell phones cameras than a 997 GT3 RS. The Scuderia has the lines of an exotic car, the 997 GT3 RS the lines of the 997 Carrera.
There are too many thing that Porsche could learn from Ferrari when making a lightweight car. The Scuderia produces twice the downforce of the 2010 GT3 RS without using the drag of a big wing. All the Scuderia body panels are aluminum, except the bumpers. There is massive use of carbon fiber everywhere, diffuser, headlight housings, front spoiler, door panels, door sills, dashboard, center console, steering wheel, engine intake, engine dust panels, rear lid, rocker panels. No subframes are used, everything in the suspension bolts to the frame itself.
If you drive the Scuderia at night on a lonely canyon road, you can see the bright white lights shinning on the rearview mirror product of the blue flames coming from the exhaust pipes.
If you source the spare parts and consumables from the right suppliers, you get about the same prices and sometimes better than Porsche parts. Ferrari CCB rotors are cheaper than Porsche PCCB rotors, and I find them both at dealer's cost. Brake pads are about the same price as the P50 Pagid Green for the PCCB cars, brake fluid is the same (SRF), oil changes are almost free on both cars (I do that myself), wheels and tires about the same. The clutch costs 50% more in the Scuderia and replacing it is an easy job.
My advice: Test drive both and decide.
The 07 RS (and very likely the 10 RS) are cars that come well setup from the factory. You just need track tires, re-check the alignment, flush the brake fluid, get track brake pads, and the car is ready to go. It is a very capable car. The GT3/GT3RS/GT2 are cars that are difficult to get a lot better with go-fast parts.
Porsche went from 415Hp in the 07 RS to 450 Hp in the new 2010 RS. I have Traqmate data from the 996 GT3 (my highly modified car), the 07 997 GT3 RS and the 09 Scuderia. The Scuderia outperforms the two Porsche by a mile, it is not even close, but there is small problem here.
A bone stock Scuderia is very fast on straight line, and brakes sooner than my two previous Porsches, but it cannot keep up it with the 996 and 997 GT3 on the turns (this didn't take me long to figure out). I started measuring tire temperatures, playing with different camber/toe settings, and measuring suspension travel. I found out that the stock car driven to the limits was running out of suspension (essentially hitting the bump stops front and rear). I have pictures, measurements and calculation determining the suspension problems.
The F430 uses a very low wheel rate, but it has a superior suspension design than any recent Porsche except the Carrera GT (a car that performs better than its crappy PS2 tires). Ferrari made the springs too soft on the Scuderia, there are 4 documented sets of factory springs for the Scuderia and they are all soft. With the help of a few SCCA friends, plus input from 3 race teams running F430, and my own calculations, we found a range of springs that could work well with my car.
I even installed Moton 3-way adjustable shocks under the assumption that I could not use standard aftermarket springs, due to the unique inner diameter of the stock Titanium springs (only the rear springs are made of titanium). However, the stock struts can handle 2.5"ID springs if one removes the plastic (delrin) useless spacers that are supposed to reduce noise, you don't need noise reduction if you use tenders, good isolators and stiff main springs.
I have tested spring rates of up to 1600# on the Scuderia, and the car doesn't feel stiff on the streets, it is an ok ride.
The Scuderia only has two problems: soft springs and skinny wheels/tires.
The problem with skinny tires is bad as well, once the suspension has been stiffened, then you can start playing with tire compounds and sizes and compare results. At one point on a 60 secs course, the crappy Pirelli Corsa System (235/295) were 6.5 seconds slower than Hoosier A6, I never saw such gap when running my 996 and 997 GT3 on MPSC tires (race-spec) vs. Hoosier A6.
Stock vs. Stock, with a good driver, the 2010 RS should out perform the Scuderia on the track (lap times), because the RS has a better suspension setup from the factory. Stock vs. Stock the Scuderia accelerates and brakes better. Keep in mind that the Scuderia is a car with 503Hp and it is also 150 lbs lighter than a 2010 GT3 RS, you can get a lighter RS by deleting AC and getting PCCB, you can also get a lighter Scuderia by getting a decent number of carbon fiber body panels, radio delete, light wheels, even manual windows.
In regards to depreciation, don't expect the 2010 RS to do as well as the 2007 RS did, 2011 RS are available at MSRP, no more $75k mark-ups even after a year (as the 07 did), new 2010 RS will be cheaper, and used 2010 RS even cheaper, pushing the 07/08 RS down even more. Expect used 2010 RS in the $120k range in a few months, and the used 07 RS getting on the $80k.
The Scuderia already took the big hit, nobody is paying the $450k-$499k that some people paid 2 years ago, the market is about half of that. Some Scuds can be had for under $200k today, and that makes the gap with a nicely optioned 2011 GT3 RS pretty damn close.
The F1 transmission in the Scuderia (not the one in the F430) has been flawless. I have a dual clutch M3 V8 and shifting response and speed is not even close to the Scuderia. For street driving, the Scuderia F1 transmission is fine, a little jerky if you drive in Race mode (why would you on street traffic?), but on soft mode it is very gentle. The Scuderia is a lot faster with all the stability and traction controls off, but few people can drive it near the limits on this configuration.
At 8/10th or under the Scuderia is easier to drive than the 07 GT3 RS. Beyond 8/10th the Scuderia is more difficult to drive.
On Michelin Sport Cups (265/345) I lapped the 07 RS around Cal Speedway ROVAL at 1:52 highs, the same day I lapped the RS on Michelin slicks at 1:47.8. A 5 secs difference between race-spec MPSC and Cup slicks. On R888 (skinny 235/295) I lapped the same racetrack at 1:48 with the Scuderia, these tires have similar grip to the race-spec MPSC, and that shows the Scuderia is about 4 secs faster despite of the small tires. I also ran a 1:46.9 on old Hoosier A6, and will be testing the Scuderia on Cup slicks later on, expecting to run on the 1:43s range (around 4 secs faster than the 07 RS on the same tires).
My Scuderia has been more reliable than the 996 GT3 and 997 GT3 RS.
I have videos being on-track with the 07 RS and 09 Scud against C6 Z06 and Viper ACR. The Viper ACR will blow the doors of the 07 RS so easily, and I expect the 2010 GT3 RS to get the same. The ACR barely pulls on the Scuderia up to 110-120mph, at which point the Scuderia gains on the Viper from there on.
The acceleration in the Scuderia is impressive, 1/4 mile almost one second faster than a 2010 GT3, 0-60mph almost one second faster as well.
It is obvious that the Scuderia would attract more cell phones cameras than a 997 GT3 RS. The Scuderia has the lines of an exotic car, the 997 GT3 RS the lines of the 997 Carrera.
There are too many thing that Porsche could learn from Ferrari when making a lightweight car. The Scuderia produces twice the downforce of the 2010 GT3 RS without using the drag of a big wing. All the Scuderia body panels are aluminum, except the bumpers. There is massive use of carbon fiber everywhere, diffuser, headlight housings, front spoiler, door panels, door sills, dashboard, center console, steering wheel, engine intake, engine dust panels, rear lid, rocker panels. No subframes are used, everything in the suspension bolts to the frame itself.
If you drive the Scuderia at night on a lonely canyon road, you can see the bright white lights shinning on the rearview mirror product of the blue flames coming from the exhaust pipes.
If you source the spare parts and consumables from the right suppliers, you get about the same prices and sometimes better than Porsche parts. Ferrari CCB rotors are cheaper than Porsche PCCB rotors, and I find them both at dealer's cost. Brake pads are about the same price as the P50 Pagid Green for the PCCB cars, brake fluid is the same (SRF), oil changes are almost free on both cars (I do that myself), wheels and tires about the same. The clutch costs 50% more in the Scuderia and replacing it is an easy job.
My advice: Test drive both and decide.
04-13-2010, 10:15 PM
#51
Intermediate
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Here is my take on the Scuderia compared to my 07 RS.
The 07 RS (and very likely the 10 RS) are cars that come well setup from the factory. You just need track tires, re-check the alignment, flush the brake fluid, get track brake pads, and the car is ready to go. It is a very capable car. The GT3/GT3RS/GT2 are cars that are difficult to get a lot better with go-fast parts.
Porsche went from 415Hp in the 07 RS to 450 Hp in the new 2010 RS. I have Traqmate data from the 996 GT3 (my highly modified car), the 07 997 GT3 RS and the 09 Scuderia. The Scuderia outperforms the two Porsche by a mile, it is not even close, but there is small problem here.
A bone stock Scuderia is very fast on straight line, and brakes sooner than my two previous Porsches, but it cannot keep up it with the 996 and 997 GT3 on the turns (this didn't take me long to figure out). I started measuring tire temperatures, playing with different camber/toe settings, and measuring suspension travel. I found out that the stock car driven to the limits was running out of suspension (essentially hitting the bump stops front and rear). I have pictures, measurements and calculation determining the suspension problems.
The F430 uses a very low wheel rate, but it has a superior suspension design than any recent Porsche except the Carrera GT (a car that performs better than its crappy PS2 tires). Ferrari made the springs too soft on the Scuderia, there are 4 documented sets of factory springs for the Scuderia and they are all soft. With the help of a few SCCA friends, plus input from 3 race teams running F430, and my own calculations, we found a range of springs that could work well with my car.
I even installed Moton 3-way adjustable shocks under the assumption that I could not use standard aftermarket springs, due to the unique inner diameter of the stock Titanium springs (only the rear springs are made of titanium). However, the stock struts can handle 2.5"ID springs if one removes the plastic (delrin) useless spacers that are supposed to reduce noise, you don't need noise reduction if you use tenders, good isolators and stiff main springs.
I have tested spring rates of up to 1600# on the Scuderia, and the car doesn't feel stiff on the streets, it is an ok ride.
The Scuderia only has two problems: soft springs and skinny wheels/tires.
The problem with skinny tires is bad as well, once the suspension has been stiffened, then you can start playing with tire compounds and sizes and compare results. At one point on a 60 secs course, the crappy Pirelli Corsa System (235/295) were 6.5 seconds slower than Hoosier A6, I never saw such gap when running my 996 and 997 GT3 on MPSC tires (race-spec) vs. Hoosier A6.
Stock vs. Stock, with a good driver, the 2010 RS should out perform the Scuderia on the track (lap times), because the RS has a better suspension setup from the factory. Stock vs. Stock the Scuderia accelerates and brakes better. Keep in mind that the Scuderia is a car with 503Hp and it is also 150 lbs lighter than a 2010 GT3 RS, you can get a lighter RS by deleting AC and getting PCCB, you can also get a lighter Scuderia by getting a decent number of carbon fiber body panels, radio delete, light wheels, even manual windows.
In regards to depreciation, don't expect the 2010 RS to do as well as the 2007 RS did, 2011 RS are available at MSRP, no more $75k mark-ups even after a year (as the 07 did), new 2010 RS will be cheaper, and used 2010 RS even cheaper, pushing the 07/08 RS down even more. Expect used 2010 RS in the $120k range in a few months, and the used 07 RS getting on the $80k.
The Scuderia already took the big hit, nobody is paying the $450k-$499k that some people paid 2 years ago, the market is about half of that. Some Scuds can be had for under $200k today, and that makes the gap with a nicely optioned 2011 GT3 RS pretty damn close.
The F1 transmission in the Scuderia (not the one in the F430) has been flawless. I have a dual clutch M3 V8 and shifting response and speed is not even close to the Scuderia. For street driving, the Scuderia F1 transmission is fine, a little jerky if you drive in Race mode (why would you on street traffic?), but on soft mode it is very gentle. The Scuderia is a lot faster with all the stability and traction controls off, but few people can drive it near the limits on this configuration.
At 8/10th or under the Scuderia is easier to drive than the 07 GT3 RS. Beyond 8/10th the Scuderia is more difficult to drive.
On Michelin Sport Cups (265/345) I lapped the 07 RS around Cal Speedway ROVAL at 1:52 highs, the same day I lapped the RS on Michelin slicks at 1:47.8. A 5 secs difference between race-spec MPSC and Cup slicks. On R888 (skinny 235/295) I lapped the same racetrack at 1:48 with the Scuderia, these tires have similar grip to the race-spec MPSC, and that shows the Scuderia is about 4 secs faster despite of the small tires. I also ran a 1:46.9 on old Hoosier A6, and will be testing the Scuderia on Cup slicks later on, expecting to run on the 1:43s range (around 4 secs faster than the 07 RS on the same tires).
My Scuderia has been more reliable than the 996 GT3 and 997 GT3 RS.
I have videos being on-track with the 07 RS and 09 Scud against C6 Z06 and Viper ACR. The Viper ACR will blow the doors of the 07 RS so easily, and I expect the 2010 GT3 RS to get the same. The ACR barely pulls on the Scuderia up to 110-120mph, at which point the Scuderia gains on the Viper from there on.
The acceleration in the Scuderia is impressive, 1/4 mile almost one second faster than a 2010 GT3, 0-60mph almost one second faster as well.
It is obvious that the Scuderia would attract more cell phones cameras than a 997 GT3 RS. The Scuderia has the lines of an exotic car, the 997 GT3 RS the lines of the 997 Carrera.
There are too many thing that Porsche could learn from Ferrari when making a lightweight car. The Scuderia produces twice the downforce of the 2010 GT3 RS without using the drag of a big wing. All the Scuderia body panels are aluminum, except the bumpers. There is massive use of carbon fiber everywhere, diffuser, headlight housings, front spoiler, door panels, door sills, dashboard, center console, steering wheel, engine intake, engine dust panels, rear lid, rocker panels. No subframes are used, everything in the suspension bolts to the frame itself.
If you drive the Scuderia at night on a lonely canyon road, you can see the bright white lights shinning on the rearview mirror product of the blue flames coming from the exhaust pipes.
If you source the spare parts and consumables from the right suppliers, you get about the same prices and sometimes better than Porsche parts. Ferrari CCB rotors are cheaper than Porsche PCCB rotors, and I find them both at dealer's cost. Brake pads are about the same price as the P50 Pagid Green for the PCCB cars, brake fluid is the same (SRF), oil changes are almost free on both cars (I do that myself), wheels and tires about the same. The clutch costs 50% more in the Scuderia and replacing it is an easy job.
My advice: Test drive both and decide.
The 07 RS (and very likely the 10 RS) are cars that come well setup from the factory. You just need track tires, re-check the alignment, flush the brake fluid, get track brake pads, and the car is ready to go. It is a very capable car. The GT3/GT3RS/GT2 are cars that are difficult to get a lot better with go-fast parts.
Porsche went from 415Hp in the 07 RS to 450 Hp in the new 2010 RS. I have Traqmate data from the 996 GT3 (my highly modified car), the 07 997 GT3 RS and the 09 Scuderia. The Scuderia outperforms the two Porsche by a mile, it is not even close, but there is small problem here.
A bone stock Scuderia is very fast on straight line, and brakes sooner than my two previous Porsches, but it cannot keep up it with the 996 and 997 GT3 on the turns (this didn't take me long to figure out). I started measuring tire temperatures, playing with different camber/toe settings, and measuring suspension travel. I found out that the stock car driven to the limits was running out of suspension (essentially hitting the bump stops front and rear). I have pictures, measurements and calculation determining the suspension problems.
The F430 uses a very low wheel rate, but it has a superior suspension design than any recent Porsche except the Carrera GT (a car that performs better than its crappy PS2 tires). Ferrari made the springs too soft on the Scuderia, there are 4 documented sets of factory springs for the Scuderia and they are all soft. With the help of a few SCCA friends, plus input from 3 race teams running F430, and my own calculations, we found a range of springs that could work well with my car.
I even installed Moton 3-way adjustable shocks under the assumption that I could not use standard aftermarket springs, due to the unique inner diameter of the stock Titanium springs (only the rear springs are made of titanium). However, the stock struts can handle 2.5"ID springs if one removes the plastic (delrin) useless spacers that are supposed to reduce noise, you don't need noise reduction if you use tenders, good isolators and stiff main springs.
I have tested spring rates of up to 1600# on the Scuderia, and the car doesn't feel stiff on the streets, it is an ok ride.
The Scuderia only has two problems: soft springs and skinny wheels/tires.
The problem with skinny tires is bad as well, once the suspension has been stiffened, then you can start playing with tire compounds and sizes and compare results. At one point on a 60 secs course, the crappy Pirelli Corsa System (235/295) were 6.5 seconds slower than Hoosier A6, I never saw such gap when running my 996 and 997 GT3 on MPSC tires (race-spec) vs. Hoosier A6.
Stock vs. Stock, with a good driver, the 2010 RS should out perform the Scuderia on the track (lap times), because the RS has a better suspension setup from the factory. Stock vs. Stock the Scuderia accelerates and brakes better. Keep in mind that the Scuderia is a car with 503Hp and it is also 150 lbs lighter than a 2010 GT3 RS, you can get a lighter RS by deleting AC and getting PCCB, you can also get a lighter Scuderia by getting a decent number of carbon fiber body panels, radio delete, light wheels, even manual windows.
In regards to depreciation, don't expect the 2010 RS to do as well as the 2007 RS did, 2011 RS are available at MSRP, no more $75k mark-ups even after a year (as the 07 did), new 2010 RS will be cheaper, and used 2010 RS even cheaper, pushing the 07/08 RS down even more. Expect used 2010 RS in the $120k range in a few months, and the used 07 RS getting on the $80k.
The Scuderia already took the big hit, nobody is paying the $450k-$499k that some people paid 2 years ago, the market is about half of that. Some Scuds can be had for under $200k today, and that makes the gap with a nicely optioned 2011 GT3 RS pretty damn close.
The F1 transmission in the Scuderia (not the one in the F430) has been flawless. I have a dual clutch M3 V8 and shifting response and speed is not even close to the Scuderia. For street driving, the Scuderia F1 transmission is fine, a little jerky if you drive in Race mode (why would you on street traffic?), but on soft mode it is very gentle. The Scuderia is a lot faster with all the stability and traction controls off, but few people can drive it near the limits on this configuration.
At 8/10th or under the Scuderia is easier to drive than the 07 GT3 RS. Beyond 8/10th the Scuderia is more difficult to drive.
On Michelin Sport Cups (265/345) I lapped the 07 RS around Cal Speedway ROVAL at 1:52 highs, the same day I lapped the RS on Michelin slicks at 1:47.8. A 5 secs difference between race-spec MPSC and Cup slicks. On R888 (skinny 235/295) I lapped the same racetrack at 1:48 with the Scuderia, these tires have similar grip to the race-spec MPSC, and that shows the Scuderia is about 4 secs faster despite of the small tires. I also ran a 1:46.9 on old Hoosier A6, and will be testing the Scuderia on Cup slicks later on, expecting to run on the 1:43s range (around 4 secs faster than the 07 RS on the same tires).
My Scuderia has been more reliable than the 996 GT3 and 997 GT3 RS.
I have videos being on-track with the 07 RS and 09 Scud against C6 Z06 and Viper ACR. The Viper ACR will blow the doors of the 07 RS so easily, and I expect the 2010 GT3 RS to get the same. The ACR barely pulls on the Scuderia up to 110-120mph, at which point the Scuderia gains on the Viper from there on.
The acceleration in the Scuderia is impressive, 1/4 mile almost one second faster than a 2010 GT3, 0-60mph almost one second faster as well.
It is obvious that the Scuderia would attract more cell phones cameras than a 997 GT3 RS. The Scuderia has the lines of an exotic car, the 997 GT3 RS the lines of the 997 Carrera.
There are too many thing that Porsche could learn from Ferrari when making a lightweight car. The Scuderia produces twice the downforce of the 2010 GT3 RS without using the drag of a big wing. All the Scuderia body panels are aluminum, except the bumpers. There is massive use of carbon fiber everywhere, diffuser, headlight housings, front spoiler, door panels, door sills, dashboard, center console, steering wheel, engine intake, engine dust panels, rear lid, rocker panels. No subframes are used, everything in the suspension bolts to the frame itself.
If you drive the Scuderia at night on a lonely canyon road, you can see the bright white lights shinning on the rearview mirror product of the blue flames coming from the exhaust pipes.
If you source the spare parts and consumables from the right suppliers, you get about the same prices and sometimes better than Porsche parts. Ferrari CCB rotors are cheaper than Porsche PCCB rotors, and I find them both at dealer's cost. Brake pads are about the same price as the P50 Pagid Green for the PCCB cars, brake fluid is the same (SRF), oil changes are almost free on both cars (I do that myself), wheels and tires about the same. The clutch costs 50% more in the Scuderia and replacing it is an easy job.
My advice: Test drive both and decide.
04-13-2010, 10:50 PM
#52
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Here is my take on the Scuderia compared to my 07 RS.
The 07 RS (and very likely the 10 RS) are cars that come well setup from the factory. You just need track tires, re-check the alignment, flush the brake fluid, get track brake pads, and the car is ready to go. It is a very capable car. The GT3/GT3RS/GT2 are cars that are difficult to get a lot better with go-fast parts.
Porsche went from 415Hp in the 07 RS to 450 Hp in the new 2010 RS. I have Traqmate data from the 996 GT3 (my highly modified car), the 07 997 GT3 RS and the 09 Scuderia. The Scuderia outperforms the two Porsche by a mile, it is not even close, but there is small problem here.
A bone stock Scuderia is very fast on straight line, and brakes sooner than my two previous Porsches, but it cannot keep up it with the 996 and 997 GT3 on the turns (this didn't take me long to figure out). I started measuring tire temperatures, playing with different camber/toe settings, and measuring suspension travel. I found out that the stock car driven to the limits was running out of suspension (essentially hitting the bump stops front and rear). I have pictures, measurements and calculation determining the suspension problems.
The F430 uses a very low wheel rate, but it has a superior suspension design than any recent Porsche except the Carrera GT (a car that performs better than its crappy PS2 tires). Ferrari made the springs too soft on the Scuderia, there are 4 documented sets of factory springs for the Scuderia and they are all soft. With the help of a few SCCA friends, plus input from 3 race teams running F430, and my own calculations, we found a range of springs that could work well with my car.
I even installed Moton 3-way adjustable shocks under the assumption that I could not use standard aftermarket springs, due to the unique inner diameter of the stock Titanium springs (only the rear springs are made of titanium). However, the stock struts can handle 2.5"ID springs if one removes the plastic (delrin) useless spacers that are supposed to reduce noise, you don't need noise reduction if you use tenders, good isolators and stiff main springs.
I have tested spring rates of up to 1600# on the Scuderia, and the car doesn't feel stiff on the streets, it is an ok ride.
The Scuderia only has two problems: soft springs and skinny wheels/tires.
The problem with skinny tires is bad as well, once the suspension has been stiffened, then you can start playing with tire compounds and sizes and compare results. At one point on a 60 secs course, the crappy Pirelli Corsa System (235/295) were 6.5 seconds slower than Hoosier A6, I never saw such gap when running my 996 and 997 GT3 on MPSC tires (race-spec) vs. Hoosier A6.
Stock vs. Stock, with a good driver, the 2010 RS should out perform the Scuderia on the track (lap times), because the RS has a better suspension setup from the factory. Stock vs. Stock the Scuderia accelerates and brakes better. Keep in mind that the Scuderia is a car with 503Hp and it is also 150 lbs lighter than a 2010 GT3 RS, you can get a lighter RS by deleting AC and getting PCCB, you can also get a lighter Scuderia by getting a decent number of carbon fiber body panels, radio delete, light wheels, even manual windows.
In regards to depreciation, don't expect the 2010 RS to do as well as the 2007 RS did, 2011 RS are available at MSRP, no more $75k mark-ups even after a year (as the 07 did), new 2010 RS will be cheaper, and used 2010 RS even cheaper, pushing the 07/08 RS down even more. Expect used 2010 RS in the $120k range in a few months, and the used 07 RS getting on the $80k.
The Scuderia already took the big hit, nobody is paying the $450k-$499k that some people paid 2 years ago, the market is about half of that. Some Scuds can be had for under $200k today, and that makes the gap with a nicely optioned 2011 GT3 RS pretty damn close.
The F1 transmission in the Scuderia (not the one in the F430) has been flawless. I have a dual clutch M3 V8 and shifting response and speed is not even close to the Scuderia. For street driving, the Scuderia F1 transmission is fine, a little jerky if you drive in Race mode (why would you on street traffic?), but on soft mode it is very gentle. The Scuderia is a lot faster with all the stability and traction controls off, but few people can drive it near the limits on this configuration.
At 8/10th or under the Scuderia is easier to drive than the 07 GT3 RS. Beyond 8/10th the Scuderia is more difficult to drive.
On Michelin Sport Cups (265/345) I lapped the 07 RS around Cal Speedway ROVAL at 1:52 highs, the same day I lapped the RS on Michelin slicks at 1:47.8. A 5 secs difference between race-spec MPSC and Cup slicks. On R888 (skinny 235/295) I lapped the same racetrack at 1:48 with the Scuderia, these tires have similar grip to the race-spec MPSC, and that shows the Scuderia is about 4 secs faster despite of the small tires. I also ran a 1:46.9 on old Hoosier A6, and will be testing the Scuderia on Cup slicks later on, expecting to run on the 1:43s range (around 4 secs faster than the 07 RS on the same tires).
My Scuderia has been more reliable than the 996 GT3 and 997 GT3 RS.
I have videos being on-track with the 07 RS and 09 Scud against C6 Z06 and Viper ACR. The Viper ACR will blow the doors of the 07 RS so easily, and I expect the 2010 GT3 RS to get the same. The ACR barely pulls on the Scuderia up to 110-120mph, at which point the Scuderia gains on the Viper from there on.
The acceleration in the Scuderia is impressive, 1/4 mile almost one second faster than a 2010 GT3, 0-60mph almost one second faster as well.
It is obvious that the Scuderia would attract more cell phones cameras than a 997 GT3 RS. The Scuderia has the lines of an exotic car, the 997 GT3 RS the lines of the 997 Carrera.
There are too many thing that Porsche could learn from Ferrari when making a lightweight car. The Scuderia produces twice the downforce of the 2010 GT3 RS without using the drag of a big wing. All the Scuderia body panels are aluminum, except the bumpers. There is massive use of carbon fiber everywhere, diffuser, headlight housings, front spoiler, door panels, door sills, dashboard, center console, steering wheel, engine intake, engine dust panels, rear lid, rocker panels. No subframes are used, everything in the suspension bolts to the frame itself.
If you drive the Scuderia at night on a lonely canyon road, you can see the bright white lights shinning on the rearview mirror product of the blue flames coming from the exhaust pipes.
If you source the spare parts and consumables from the right suppliers, you get about the same prices and sometimes better than Porsche parts. Ferrari CCB rotors are cheaper than Porsche PCCB rotors, and I find them both at dealer's cost. Brake pads are about the same price as the P50 Pagid Green for the PCCB cars, brake fluid is the same (SRF), oil changes are almost free on both cars (I do that myself), wheels and tires about the same. The clutch costs 50% more in the Scuderia and replacing it is an easy job.
My advice: Test drive both and decide.
The 07 RS (and very likely the 10 RS) are cars that come well setup from the factory. You just need track tires, re-check the alignment, flush the brake fluid, get track brake pads, and the car is ready to go. It is a very capable car. The GT3/GT3RS/GT2 are cars that are difficult to get a lot better with go-fast parts.
Porsche went from 415Hp in the 07 RS to 450 Hp in the new 2010 RS. I have Traqmate data from the 996 GT3 (my highly modified car), the 07 997 GT3 RS and the 09 Scuderia. The Scuderia outperforms the two Porsche by a mile, it is not even close, but there is small problem here.
A bone stock Scuderia is very fast on straight line, and brakes sooner than my two previous Porsches, but it cannot keep up it with the 996 and 997 GT3 on the turns (this didn't take me long to figure out). I started measuring tire temperatures, playing with different camber/toe settings, and measuring suspension travel. I found out that the stock car driven to the limits was running out of suspension (essentially hitting the bump stops front and rear). I have pictures, measurements and calculation determining the suspension problems.
The F430 uses a very low wheel rate, but it has a superior suspension design than any recent Porsche except the Carrera GT (a car that performs better than its crappy PS2 tires). Ferrari made the springs too soft on the Scuderia, there are 4 documented sets of factory springs for the Scuderia and they are all soft. With the help of a few SCCA friends, plus input from 3 race teams running F430, and my own calculations, we found a range of springs that could work well with my car.
I even installed Moton 3-way adjustable shocks under the assumption that I could not use standard aftermarket springs, due to the unique inner diameter of the stock Titanium springs (only the rear springs are made of titanium). However, the stock struts can handle 2.5"ID springs if one removes the plastic (delrin) useless spacers that are supposed to reduce noise, you don't need noise reduction if you use tenders, good isolators and stiff main springs.
I have tested spring rates of up to 1600# on the Scuderia, and the car doesn't feel stiff on the streets, it is an ok ride.
The Scuderia only has two problems: soft springs and skinny wheels/tires.
The problem with skinny tires is bad as well, once the suspension has been stiffened, then you can start playing with tire compounds and sizes and compare results. At one point on a 60 secs course, the crappy Pirelli Corsa System (235/295) were 6.5 seconds slower than Hoosier A6, I never saw such gap when running my 996 and 997 GT3 on MPSC tires (race-spec) vs. Hoosier A6.
Stock vs. Stock, with a good driver, the 2010 RS should out perform the Scuderia on the track (lap times), because the RS has a better suspension setup from the factory. Stock vs. Stock the Scuderia accelerates and brakes better. Keep in mind that the Scuderia is a car with 503Hp and it is also 150 lbs lighter than a 2010 GT3 RS, you can get a lighter RS by deleting AC and getting PCCB, you can also get a lighter Scuderia by getting a decent number of carbon fiber body panels, radio delete, light wheels, even manual windows.
In regards to depreciation, don't expect the 2010 RS to do as well as the 2007 RS did, 2011 RS are available at MSRP, no more $75k mark-ups even after a year (as the 07 did), new 2010 RS will be cheaper, and used 2010 RS even cheaper, pushing the 07/08 RS down even more. Expect used 2010 RS in the $120k range in a few months, and the used 07 RS getting on the $80k.
The Scuderia already took the big hit, nobody is paying the $450k-$499k that some people paid 2 years ago, the market is about half of that. Some Scuds can be had for under $200k today, and that makes the gap with a nicely optioned 2011 GT3 RS pretty damn close.
The F1 transmission in the Scuderia (not the one in the F430) has been flawless. I have a dual clutch M3 V8 and shifting response and speed is not even close to the Scuderia. For street driving, the Scuderia F1 transmission is fine, a little jerky if you drive in Race mode (why would you on street traffic?), but on soft mode it is very gentle. The Scuderia is a lot faster with all the stability and traction controls off, but few people can drive it near the limits on this configuration.
At 8/10th or under the Scuderia is easier to drive than the 07 GT3 RS. Beyond 8/10th the Scuderia is more difficult to drive.
On Michelin Sport Cups (265/345) I lapped the 07 RS around Cal Speedway ROVAL at 1:52 highs, the same day I lapped the RS on Michelin slicks at 1:47.8. A 5 secs difference between race-spec MPSC and Cup slicks. On R888 (skinny 235/295) I lapped the same racetrack at 1:48 with the Scuderia, these tires have similar grip to the race-spec MPSC, and that shows the Scuderia is about 4 secs faster despite of the small tires. I also ran a 1:46.9 on old Hoosier A6, and will be testing the Scuderia on Cup slicks later on, expecting to run on the 1:43s range (around 4 secs faster than the 07 RS on the same tires).
My Scuderia has been more reliable than the 996 GT3 and 997 GT3 RS.
I have videos being on-track with the 07 RS and 09 Scud against C6 Z06 and Viper ACR. The Viper ACR will blow the doors of the 07 RS so easily, and I expect the 2010 GT3 RS to get the same. The ACR barely pulls on the Scuderia up to 110-120mph, at which point the Scuderia gains on the Viper from there on.
The acceleration in the Scuderia is impressive, 1/4 mile almost one second faster than a 2010 GT3, 0-60mph almost one second faster as well.
It is obvious that the Scuderia would attract more cell phones cameras than a 997 GT3 RS. The Scuderia has the lines of an exotic car, the 997 GT3 RS the lines of the 997 Carrera.
There are too many thing that Porsche could learn from Ferrari when making a lightweight car. The Scuderia produces twice the downforce of the 2010 GT3 RS without using the drag of a big wing. All the Scuderia body panels are aluminum, except the bumpers. There is massive use of carbon fiber everywhere, diffuser, headlight housings, front spoiler, door panels, door sills, dashboard, center console, steering wheel, engine intake, engine dust panels, rear lid, rocker panels. No subframes are used, everything in the suspension bolts to the frame itself.
If you drive the Scuderia at night on a lonely canyon road, you can see the bright white lights shinning on the rearview mirror product of the blue flames coming from the exhaust pipes.
If you source the spare parts and consumables from the right suppliers, you get about the same prices and sometimes better than Porsche parts. Ferrari CCB rotors are cheaper than Porsche PCCB rotors, and I find them both at dealer's cost. Brake pads are about the same price as the P50 Pagid Green for the PCCB cars, brake fluid is the same (SRF), oil changes are almost free on both cars (I do that myself), wheels and tires about the same. The clutch costs 50% more in the Scuderia and replacing it is an easy job.
My advice: Test drive both and decide.
What a post!
04-13-2010, 10:53 PM
#53
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NJ-GT, thank you once again for your excellent educated input. Your information is always epic. Are you still running the motons, or have you gone back to stock shocks and aftermarket springs? I would be interested in seeing a list of mods you have done to your Scud. The Cup slicks will be used on your HRE wheels, or something not as wide?
thanks
thanks
04-13-2010, 11:08 PM
#54
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I have had a Scud for several years now. Navigation is much easier in the 911 than the Scud. When you are targeting the Scud, its possible for it to lose its coordinates when the load goes from the Scud switching from external power to internal generators. The launcher is a BIOTCH getting it in the driveway. I use the MAZ-543 8 Wheeler. The Scud uses Kerosene in a single liquid fuel.
The 911 is alot better to use, plus you can only use the Scud once. Once its gone thats is.
You either buy another one or your done. Also working with the Russian salesman is a
pain in the butt. The 911 is a MUCH better than the Scud as a Daily driver. And half the time
the Scud either doesn't launch or it hits 100 miles away from the Target.
The 911 is alot better to use, plus you can only use the Scud once. Once its gone thats is.
You either buy another one or your done. Also working with the Russian salesman is a
pain in the butt. The 911 is a MUCH better than the Scud as a Daily driver. And half the time
the Scud either doesn't launch or it hits 100 miles away from the Target.
04-14-2010, 12:49 AM
#55
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Paul: Scud is the missile, Scuderia is the F1 Ferrari Team, and 430 Scuderia is the car we are talking about. =)
Here is a graph from my Traqmate data showing the relative position after the fastest lap for my 07 RS on 265/345 MPSC (race-spec tires, not the lower grip stock ones), a fresh set of Michelin Blue Cups on the same 07 RS and same day (240/270 3 Heat Cycles on 18" Magnesium wheels), and the 430 Scuderia on Toyo R888 (235/295 on the stock 8"/10"x19" wheels).
Lap Times for each car are on the left.
Notice that the entry speed into segment 8, getting out of the infield onto the Nascar Speedway, the GT3 RS on slicks is 6.5 mph faster than the same car on MPSC. I ran two sessions on MPSC and two sessions on slicks, best lap for each car. The Scuderia cannot get anywhere close to the entry speeds from the GT3 RS on slicks, but it enters the segment 8 faster than the GT3 RS on MPSC. However, despite of the advantage from the RS with slicks, by the finish line the Scuderia has a higher speed, and it just keeps going up from there.
In one of the infield segments, the speed differential (end of inner straight) between the Scuderia on R888 and GT3 RS on MPSC is 8 mph.
In Traqmate, you can enter parameters such as gear ratios, actual weight with driver, drag coefficient, and it gives a ballpark of Horsepower to the wheels. The numbers on the right are pretty close to the real thing.
Here is a graph from my Traqmate data showing the relative position after the fastest lap for my 07 RS on 265/345 MPSC (race-spec tires, not the lower grip stock ones), a fresh set of Michelin Blue Cups on the same 07 RS and same day (240/270 3 Heat Cycles on 18" Magnesium wheels), and the 430 Scuderia on Toyo R888 (235/295 on the stock 8"/10"x19" wheels).
Lap Times for each car are on the left.
Notice that the entry speed into segment 8, getting out of the infield onto the Nascar Speedway, the GT3 RS on slicks is 6.5 mph faster than the same car on MPSC. I ran two sessions on MPSC and two sessions on slicks, best lap for each car. The Scuderia cannot get anywhere close to the entry speeds from the GT3 RS on slicks, but it enters the segment 8 faster than the GT3 RS on MPSC. However, despite of the advantage from the RS with slicks, by the finish line the Scuderia has a higher speed, and it just keeps going up from there.
In one of the infield segments, the speed differential (end of inner straight) between the Scuderia on R888 and GT3 RS on MPSC is 8 mph.
In Traqmate, you can enter parameters such as gear ratios, actual weight with driver, drag coefficient, and it gives a ballpark of Horsepower to the wheels. The numbers on the right are pretty close to the real thing.
04-14-2010, 12:58 AM
#56
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Paul: Scud is the missile, Scuderia is the F1 Ferrari Team, and 430 Scuderia is the car we are talking about. =)
Here is a graph from my Traqmate data showing the relative position after the fastest lap for my 07 RS on 265/345 MPSC (race-spec tires, not the lower grip stock ones), a fresh set of Michelin Blue Cups on the same 07 RS and same day (240/270 3 Heat Cycles on 18" Magnesium wheels), and the 430 Scuderia on Toyo R888 (235/295 on the stock 8"/10"x19" wheels).
Lap Times for each car are on the left.
Notice that the entry speed into segment 8, getting out of the infield onto the Nascar Speedway, the GT3 RS on slicks is 6.5 mph faster than the same car on MPSC. I ran two sessions on MPSC and two sessions on slicks, best lap for each car. The Scuderia cannot get anywhere close to the entry speeds from the GT3 RS on slicks, but it enters the segment 8 faster than the GT3 RS on MPSC. However, despite of the advantage from the RS with slicks, by the finish line the Scuderia has a higher speed, and it just keeps going up from there.
In one of the infield segments, the speed differential (end of inner straight) between the Scuderia on R888 and GT3 RS on MPSC is 8 mph.
In Traqmate, you can enter parameters such as gear ratios, actual weight with driver, drag coefficient, and it gives a ballpark of Horsepower to the wheels. The numbers on the right are pretty close to the real thing.
Here is a graph from my Traqmate data showing the relative position after the fastest lap for my 07 RS on 265/345 MPSC (race-spec tires, not the lower grip stock ones), a fresh set of Michelin Blue Cups on the same 07 RS and same day (240/270 3 Heat Cycles on 18" Magnesium wheels), and the 430 Scuderia on Toyo R888 (235/295 on the stock 8"/10"x19" wheels).
Lap Times for each car are on the left.
Notice that the entry speed into segment 8, getting out of the infield onto the Nascar Speedway, the GT3 RS on slicks is 6.5 mph faster than the same car on MPSC. I ran two sessions on MPSC and two sessions on slicks, best lap for each car. The Scuderia cannot get anywhere close to the entry speeds from the GT3 RS on slicks, but it enters the segment 8 faster than the GT3 RS on MPSC. However, despite of the advantage from the RS with slicks, by the finish line the Scuderia has a higher speed, and it just keeps going up from there.
In one of the infield segments, the speed differential (end of inner straight) between the Scuderia on R888 and GT3 RS on MPSC is 8 mph.
In Traqmate, you can enter parameters such as gear ratios, actual weight with driver, drag coefficient, and it gives a ballpark of Horsepower to the wheels. The numbers on the right are pretty close to the real thing.
thanks!
04-14-2010, 01:53 AM
#57
I have had a Scud for several years now. Navigation is much easier in the 911 than the Scud. When you are targeting the Scud, its possible for it to lose its coordinates when the load goes from the Scud switching from external power to internal generators. The launcher is a BIOTCH getting it in the driveway. I use the MAZ-543 8 Wheeler. The Scud uses Kerosene in a single liquid fuel.
The 911 is alot better to use, plus you can only use the Scud once. Once its gone thats is.
You either buy another one or your done. Also working with the Russian salesman is a
pain in the butt. The 911 is a MUCH better than the Scud as a Daily driver. And half the time
the Scud either doesn't launch or it hits 100 miles away from the Target.
The 911 is alot better to use, plus you can only use the Scud once. Once its gone thats is.
You either buy another one or your done. Also working with the Russian salesman is a
pain in the butt. The 911 is a MUCH better than the Scud as a Daily driver. And half the time
the Scud either doesn't launch or it hits 100 miles away from the Target.
04-14-2010, 01:59 AM
#58
Paul: Scud is the missile, Scuderia is the F1 Ferrari Team, and 430 Scuderia is the car we are talking about. =)
Here is a graph from my Traqmate data showing the relative position after the fastest lap for my 07 RS on 265/345 MPSC (race-spec tires, not the lower grip stock ones), a fresh set of Michelin Blue Cups on the same 07 RS and same day (240/270 3 Heat Cycles on 18" Magnesium wheels), and the 430 Scuderia on Toyo R888 (235/295 on the stock 8"/10"x19" wheels).
Lap Times for each car are on the left.
Notice that the entry speed into segment 8, getting out of the infield onto the Nascar Speedway, the GT3 RS on slicks is 6.5 mph faster than the same car on MPSC. I ran two sessions on MPSC and two sessions on slicks, best lap for each car. The Scuderia cannot get anywhere close to the entry speeds from the GT3 RS on slicks, but it enters the segment 8 faster than the GT3 RS on MPSC. However, despite of the advantage from the RS with slicks, by the finish line the Scuderia has a higher speed, and it just keeps going up from there.
In one of the infield segments, the speed differential (end of inner straight) between the Scuderia on R888 and GT3 RS on MPSC is 8 mph.
In Traqmate, you can enter parameters such as gear ratios, actual weight with driver, drag coefficient, and it gives a ballpark of Horsepower to the wheels. The numbers on the right are pretty close to the real thing.
Here is a graph from my Traqmate data showing the relative position after the fastest lap for my 07 RS on 265/345 MPSC (race-spec tires, not the lower grip stock ones), a fresh set of Michelin Blue Cups on the same 07 RS and same day (240/270 3 Heat Cycles on 18" Magnesium wheels), and the 430 Scuderia on Toyo R888 (235/295 on the stock 8"/10"x19" wheels).
Lap Times for each car are on the left.
Notice that the entry speed into segment 8, getting out of the infield onto the Nascar Speedway, the GT3 RS on slicks is 6.5 mph faster than the same car on MPSC. I ran two sessions on MPSC and two sessions on slicks, best lap for each car. The Scuderia cannot get anywhere close to the entry speeds from the GT3 RS on slicks, but it enters the segment 8 faster than the GT3 RS on MPSC. However, despite of the advantage from the RS with slicks, by the finish line the Scuderia has a higher speed, and it just keeps going up from there.
In one of the infield segments, the speed differential (end of inner straight) between the Scuderia on R888 and GT3 RS on MPSC is 8 mph.
In Traqmate, you can enter parameters such as gear ratios, actual weight with driver, drag coefficient, and it gives a ballpark of Horsepower to the wheels. The numbers on the right are pretty close to the real thing.
It seems the Scuderia deserves the same 265 and 345's. I imagine the rear of the RS was pretty "full" with that much rubber.
How is the "racing" Sport Cup identified? Just the non-N-rated stuff on tirerack? I put 265's on the front of a 997.1 GT3 and it made a world of difference (with a GT2 sway on full stiff.)
04-14-2010, 04:27 AM
#59
Addict
Rennlist Member
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My GT3 RS had the following upgrades:
- GMG sway bars (a must to fix the understeer on the 997.1 GT3 and GT3 RS. Front bar is stiffer, rear bar a lot more stiffer). Set in the middle front/rear for autoX and full stiff front/rear for track.
- Upper rear monoball control arms (dog bones) from ERP Racing. Tarett, GMG and RSS make them.
- ERP Racing rear toe links with monoball bearings and bump steer adjustment.
- Stock wheels with 265/345 MPSC, or BBS 9x19 and 9x12 with 265/345 Hoosier A6 or BBS Magnesium 18x9 and 18x11 with Michelin Blue Cups.
- 997 GT2 Carbon seats
- 15 lbs Braille battery with carbon fiber casing
- 996 GT3 PCCB (lighter than 997 GT3 PCCB).
The Scuderia doesn't have that many upgrades compared to my former RS:
- Hypercoils 1100# front springs and 1200# rear springs (takes 2 hours to change them all, very easy).
- Novitec sway bars, front 2mm thicker, rear 2.5mm thicker. Same benefit as the GMG sway bars on the 997.1 GT3 RS, this car understeers even worse than the GT3 RS bone stock.
- Stock wheels with 235/295 R888, HRE Competition C21 9.5x19 and 11.5x19 with 295/345 Hoosier A6. New wheels coming are 18x10 and 18x12 and will be running 285/30R18 and 335/30R18 A6. Another set of 18x10 and 18x12 will be using the GT3 Cup slicks, most likely will sell the expensive HRE.
- F430 Challenge Delrin bushings for the 8 control arms (wishbones), replacing the stock rubber.
- A pair of F430 paddle shifters, because the small carbon fiber stock ones are hard to find.
- I removed the Moton 3-way adjustable shocks. Adjusting rebound requires lifting the car at each corner, adjusting compression in the back required removing carbon fiber engine panels. Too much trouble, and the stock shocks (made by sachs) are pretty good.
The 345 MPSC is the same tire used by the Viper ACR, it is a race-spec (no N-spec anywhere). The 265 is also a race spec. There was a post by Damon@TireRack showing the difference between the n-spec and the race spec, the n-spec has an extra groove, and bigger rain grooves.
To run a 345 on the rear of the 07 RS, I removed the factory 5mm spacer, so my new offset was 51mm instead of 46mm, then I rolled the rear fenders, and the tire fits with no rubbing, but it was a tight fit. The Scuderia instead can use the 345 with plenty of inner and outer clearance for a 1" wider tire (375). At the front of the Scuderia I have run a 315, but it rubs a little on the fenders, so 295 is maxed out.
With the 2010 GT3 RS, I think it would be hard to use a 345, the CL wheels are not friendly to spacers, so a 345 would require a 1/4" less aggressive offset rear wheel, and fender rolling. Anyway as demostrated on the graph above, the 265/345 were 5 secs slower than the 240/270. Tire compound is more important than tire width.
- GMG sway bars (a must to fix the understeer on the 997.1 GT3 and GT3 RS. Front bar is stiffer, rear bar a lot more stiffer). Set in the middle front/rear for autoX and full stiff front/rear for track.
- Upper rear monoball control arms (dog bones) from ERP Racing. Tarett, GMG and RSS make them.
- ERP Racing rear toe links with monoball bearings and bump steer adjustment.
- Stock wheels with 265/345 MPSC, or BBS 9x19 and 9x12 with 265/345 Hoosier A6 or BBS Magnesium 18x9 and 18x11 with Michelin Blue Cups.
- 997 GT2 Carbon seats
- 15 lbs Braille battery with carbon fiber casing
- 996 GT3 PCCB (lighter than 997 GT3 PCCB).
The Scuderia doesn't have that many upgrades compared to my former RS:
- Hypercoils 1100# front springs and 1200# rear springs (takes 2 hours to change them all, very easy).
- Novitec sway bars, front 2mm thicker, rear 2.5mm thicker. Same benefit as the GMG sway bars on the 997.1 GT3 RS, this car understeers even worse than the GT3 RS bone stock.
- Stock wheels with 235/295 R888, HRE Competition C21 9.5x19 and 11.5x19 with 295/345 Hoosier A6. New wheels coming are 18x10 and 18x12 and will be running 285/30R18 and 335/30R18 A6. Another set of 18x10 and 18x12 will be using the GT3 Cup slicks, most likely will sell the expensive HRE.
- F430 Challenge Delrin bushings for the 8 control arms (wishbones), replacing the stock rubber.
- A pair of F430 paddle shifters, because the small carbon fiber stock ones are hard to find.
- I removed the Moton 3-way adjustable shocks. Adjusting rebound requires lifting the car at each corner, adjusting compression in the back required removing carbon fiber engine panels. Too much trouble, and the stock shocks (made by sachs) are pretty good.
The 345 MPSC is the same tire used by the Viper ACR, it is a race-spec (no N-spec anywhere). The 265 is also a race spec. There was a post by Damon@TireRack showing the difference between the n-spec and the race spec, the n-spec has an extra groove, and bigger rain grooves.
To run a 345 on the rear of the 07 RS, I removed the factory 5mm spacer, so my new offset was 51mm instead of 46mm, then I rolled the rear fenders, and the tire fits with no rubbing, but it was a tight fit. The Scuderia instead can use the 345 with plenty of inner and outer clearance for a 1" wider tire (375). At the front of the Scuderia I have run a 315, but it rubs a little on the fenders, so 295 is maxed out.
With the 2010 GT3 RS, I think it would be hard to use a 345, the CL wheels are not friendly to spacers, so a 345 would require a 1/4" less aggressive offset rear wheel, and fender rolling. Anyway as demostrated on the graph above, the 265/345 were 5 secs slower than the 240/270. Tire compound is more important than tire width.
04-14-2010, 04:59 AM
#60
Intermediate
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will you be able to fit the 18" HRE rims over the carbon ceramic brakes on your scuderia, or are you swapping them out to some stop tech steel units?
i love it, so full of useful and interesting information! no talk about which caliper color or wrap looks best. just the facts. juusstt the facts.
please, keep up the great posts!
i love it, so full of useful and interesting information! no talk about which caliper color or wrap looks best. just the facts. juusstt the facts.
please, keep up the great posts!