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03-11-2009, 02:58 AM
#91
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Frankly, I was stunned by my opinion, too. After so many disappointments from VAG in terms of steering and suspension over the years, I didn't know what to expect. My observations are strictly street-oriented; I have not tracked the R8 and maybe its bulk would become a problem there -- but then the same could be said about a GT3 RS if you drive a 911 Spec racer....
The journalist who brought the R8 is a good friend and owns a 997 GT3. He was testing the Audi for Sports Car International, but met me to go run the Excellence loop. I happened to have a 997 T4S in on a loan, so -- while fully recognizing it was not the right 911 for true comparison purposes (though what really is? C4S X51? Turbo?) -- I brought that and we traded seats over 600-800 miles on the North Loop and then some.
That R8 made the T4S feel heavy, soft, old, dated, and uninspired; I was shocked how much so. However, I found that the merits of the 911 were still present. With quite a bit less power, inferior balance, and inferior suspension, you could still keep the T4S in the mix in terms of pace. But here's the thing: you had to really USE the T4S to do so, and over rougher sections, I felt like I was using the car harder than I like to on the street. Not so much in terms of speed or commitment, but in terms of mechanical sympathy. Though I wasn't pushing past the boundaries of safety or sanity, the car was past its "happy place." It felt more like work than fun.
The R8, meanwhile, was no fuss, no muss -- but WAY more fun and far more thrilling. There was probably (a bit) more speed to access, but you felt so alive you didn't have to press harder to get the adrenaline rush. And then -- past the chassis' goodness -- there was the V8's noise, the sound of the shifter clanking through its gate, and the overall sense of occasion.
To answer your question, I doubt the R8 is "faster" than a GT3 on a given road with equal drivers. But here's the thing for me: The only time I care about a fast car being fastER than another car is on an autocross course or on a race track. In a street car, the experience (the fun, the thrill, the sounds, the feel) is more important to me than the speed. That's why, if I wasn't going to track it, was stuck with it, and couldn't modify it, I'd take a Cayman 2.7 over a 997 Turbo.
The R8 positively rocked my world. I was casually working on a story called "The Enemy Within" as a 2-pager based on the SCI test, but I only had so much space in that issue and was already hacking away at one of Porsche's new cars for something else (probably damper-related!
). I also wondered how many of my readers could stand to hear the R8 shredded the 997 up -- not that they ever listen when we suggest how good Boxsters are.
All this happened before 997.2, and I think Porsche has addressed much of it with the new 997s. Major improvements to PASM, better engines, and transmission choices fully on par with the R8 are all in there. Given the improvements to those cars and the stunning achievement that is the 997 GT2, I think the 997.2 GT3 is very, very promising...
I have to say I'd probably buy a 997 over an R8 for another reason: it's got kid seats in back and, visually, it's a Camry here in SF and that's very appealing to me. Less show, just as much go. Finally, while I'm a mid-engined guy, I've learned to love the 911's handling traits as well as the unique opportunity and challenge they present. And I've already got a mid-engined car.
Now, back on topic: Much of what NJ-GT says about his observations re: 997.1 GT3 RS handling match up to my feelings/perceptions. They are the same areas for improvement I see, and the same areas I think suffered as a result of Motorsport being VERY busy at the time. Based on my time in the new 2 and conversations with key people, my bet is many of these areas will be addressed in the new car.
I just wish I was excited about the new styling. But I will hold out until I see the car in person. For me, the current/old GT3/RS is a high point among water-cooled 911s, and maybe all 911s.
pete
P.S. How do you guys get any work done?!? I gotta get off this soap box and back to work! Working on a test of the Manthey GT2 for the next issue. Looks to be pretty sick. The dude's no joke: "...Manthey only offers EU drive-by noise compliant versions of its exhaust systems. Says Olaf: 'We have no ‘export’ versions. We only make things that genuinely improve performance. While I acknowledge that ‘show and shine’ is a legitimate part of enthusiast culture, that is not what Manthey-Racing and Manthey Motors are about.'"
The journalist who brought the R8 is a good friend and owns a 997 GT3. He was testing the Audi for Sports Car International, but met me to go run the Excellence loop. I happened to have a 997 T4S in on a loan, so -- while fully recognizing it was not the right 911 for true comparison purposes (though what really is? C4S X51? Turbo?) -- I brought that and we traded seats over 600-800 miles on the North Loop and then some.
That R8 made the T4S feel heavy, soft, old, dated, and uninspired; I was shocked how much so. However, I found that the merits of the 911 were still present. With quite a bit less power, inferior balance, and inferior suspension, you could still keep the T4S in the mix in terms of pace. But here's the thing: you had to really USE the T4S to do so, and over rougher sections, I felt like I was using the car harder than I like to on the street. Not so much in terms of speed or commitment, but in terms of mechanical sympathy. Though I wasn't pushing past the boundaries of safety or sanity, the car was past its "happy place." It felt more like work than fun.
The R8, meanwhile, was no fuss, no muss -- but WAY more fun and far more thrilling. There was probably (a bit) more speed to access, but you felt so alive you didn't have to press harder to get the adrenaline rush. And then -- past the chassis' goodness -- there was the V8's noise, the sound of the shifter clanking through its gate, and the overall sense of occasion.
To answer your question, I doubt the R8 is "faster" than a GT3 on a given road with equal drivers. But here's the thing for me: The only time I care about a fast car being fastER than another car is on an autocross course or on a race track. In a street car, the experience (the fun, the thrill, the sounds, the feel) is more important to me than the speed. That's why, if I wasn't going to track it, was stuck with it, and couldn't modify it, I'd take a Cayman 2.7 over a 997 Turbo.
The R8 positively rocked my world. I was casually working on a story called "The Enemy Within" as a 2-pager based on the SCI test, but I only had so much space in that issue and was already hacking away at one of Porsche's new cars for something else (probably damper-related!
). I also wondered how many of my readers could stand to hear the R8 shredded the 997 up -- not that they ever listen when we suggest how good Boxsters are. All this happened before 997.2, and I think Porsche has addressed much of it with the new 997s. Major improvements to PASM, better engines, and transmission choices fully on par with the R8 are all in there. Given the improvements to those cars and the stunning achievement that is the 997 GT2, I think the 997.2 GT3 is very, very promising...
I have to say I'd probably buy a 997 over an R8 for another reason: it's got kid seats in back and, visually, it's a Camry here in SF and that's very appealing to me. Less show, just as much go. Finally, while I'm a mid-engined guy, I've learned to love the 911's handling traits as well as the unique opportunity and challenge they present. And I've already got a mid-engined car.
Now, back on topic: Much of what NJ-GT says about his observations re: 997.1 GT3 RS handling match up to my feelings/perceptions. They are the same areas for improvement I see, and the same areas I think suffered as a result of Motorsport being VERY busy at the time. Based on my time in the new 2 and conversations with key people, my bet is many of these areas will be addressed in the new car.
I just wish I was excited about the new styling. But I will hold out until I see the car in person. For me, the current/old GT3/RS is a high point among water-cooled 911s, and maybe all 911s.
pete
P.S. How do you guys get any work done?!? I gotta get off this soap box and back to work! Working on a test of the Manthey GT2 for the next issue. Looks to be pretty sick. The dude's no joke: "...Manthey only offers EU drive-by noise compliant versions of its exhaust systems. Says Olaf: 'We have no ‘export’ versions. We only make things that genuinely improve performance. While I acknowledge that ‘show and shine’ is a legitimate part of enthusiast culture, that is not what Manthey-Racing and Manthey Motors are about.'"
First off, thanks much for your candid assessment.
That said, I'm saddled with mixed emotions, based on your views. Nothing wrong with that of course, in fact it's quite refreshing.
A great part of me wants to wax poetic -- with a helicopter viewpoint -- and jump ship to Audi, but -- it's too great a leap at present. In terms of trust (not being in your position of hands-on testing), I'm more than a bit reluctant, purchase-wise to the Audi. And it's not a close-minded sort of thing.
Frankly, I'd like to see Porsche move beyond the 10% (give-or-take) improvement mandate they've adhered to for decades. I trust Porsche. When I ante up $100+K for a GT3, my expectations are of the highest order, and the "experience" certainly factors highly into such expectations.
Part of me -- the old guard -- tells me that quality, integrity, and history is enough, but certainly Audi is challenging that standard, leastcase dynamically.
Not wanting to overstate the obvious, but does anyone know whether an R8/10 can withstand the rigors of years of track sessions? Ironically, I'd guess that the majority turn our cars over within a few years for the next new 911, so there's irony written all over the place here.
PS: The 'trust' aspect mentioned above is likely great fodder for much commentary (for your publication) for the marque. Once again, I feel I'm overstating the obvious. It's not the '70's or '80's anymore, and competition being what it is, six-figure Porsches need to compete on more than an emotional level. That used to be enough.
03-11-2009, 05:44 AM
#92
That's the point. With profits where they are Porsche simply hasn't felt pushed for a decade. The turbo/GT3/GT2 motor in their flagships is probably 50-100 lbs overweight vs the competition; bolting water jackets, external water cooling plumbing, etc onto a 20 year old air cooled block design will do that. With no direct injection and that much extra weight in the last place you'd want it Porsche has obviously been comfortable coasting, and the competition had finally caught up. Perhaps with the R8 (and F430, GTR, etc) they might finally hear footsteps and take the gloves off. One can hope...
03-11-2009, 11:32 AM
#93
Three Wheelin'
And fewer yet who live to tell about it......... 
03-11-2009, 10:44 PM
#94
The post which mentions durability and quality of construction strikes a chord with me for a very current reason. My GT3 was recently broadsided in a traffic accident on a snowy day and suffered significant damage (I was unhurt). It is all being repaired and the car will be as good as new (except in the resale department) but it gave me the chance to see the inner structure of part of the car and to discuss it with my body man. He assures me that these cars are not built the same as other cars and I can see how much more robust the structure is. Additionally, the specificity of the parts used for each function is almost fanatical. The same body guy just finished my wife's Touareg (my insurance company and my deductibles had a bad year) and, while it is well made, it is not the same. If Audi/VW follows its pattern of reliability and expense of repair later on, thr R8 may begin to pale a little.
03-13-2009, 12:25 AM
#95
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That's the point. With profits where they are Porsche simply hasn't felt pushed for a decade. The turbo/GT3/GT2 motor in their flagships is probably 50-100 lbs overweight vs the competition; bolting water jackets, external water cooling plumbing, etc onto a 20 year old air cooled block design will do that. With no direct injection and that much extra weight in the last place you'd want it Porsche has obviously been comfortable coasting, and the competition had finally caught up. Perhaps with the R8 (and F430, GTR, etc) they might finally hear footsteps and take the gloves off. One can hope...
Something tells me that Weideking and Co. felt that they accomplished this (the leap) with the 996. But as is typical with anything first-generation Porsche, the internal view doesn't match up with the reality of the world view. Trying to be constructively critical here.
03-13-2009, 06:59 PM
#96
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Good thread.
Metalsolid had one of several statements that stood out for me-
Nose lift; $3000 part that protects a $200 part...?
- I'll stay tuned w/ my Mark 11 till I see the next offering
Bill
Metalsolid had one of several statements that stood out for me-
Nose lift; $3000 part that protects a $200 part...?
- I'll stay tuned w/ my Mark 11 till I see the next offering
Bill
