GT3 Configurator up
03-05-2009, 02:43 PM
#31
Wish Porsche would do modern day "Light" option packages.
Tick one option code box and get:
-Shell bucket (GT2) seats
-No sunroof
-LW rear windows
-Lightweight carpeting
-Simplified front trunk trim
-No passenger visor
-No door boxes
-Reduced sound deadening everywhere but the rear wheelwells
-Moton (or similar) dampers
-Stiffer engine mounts
And another to get an "extreme" light package:
-Lightweight wheels
-PCCB
-No A/C
Track pack could add:
-Roll bar (sadly, not for U.S.)
-Simplified hot-lap timer setup or SCP with data logging
-Harnesses and a fire extinguisher in a box
Seems to me Porsche is leaving money on the table. But then, what do I know....
pete
Tick one option code box and get:
-Shell bucket (GT2) seats
-No sunroof
-LW rear windows
-Lightweight carpeting
-Simplified front trunk trim
-No passenger visor
-No door boxes
-Reduced sound deadening everywhere but the rear wheelwells
-Moton (or similar) dampers
-Stiffer engine mounts
And another to get an "extreme" light package:
-Lightweight wheels
-PCCB
-No A/C
Track pack could add:
-Roll bar (sadly, not for U.S.)
-Simplified hot-lap timer setup or SCP with data logging
-Harnesses and a fire extinguisher in a box
Seems to me Porsche is leaving money on the table. But then, what do I know....
pete
I'd like to know -- and perhaps you can tell or have someone do the research to find out the truth instead of the excuses. It's a question that's been there since at least the late 80's, the 964's and cropped up with the 993 RS, then the 996 GT3 circa '99 and every GT3 variant since:
Why do US "versions" of cars like the GT2 and GT3 have to be so dumbed down? We know it's not "the law" or DOT or CARB, it's a corporate "decision" by Porsche either in NA or Germany, but WHY? What possible harm is there in installing a roll cage. If DAS can put a cage in a 911 and not go out of business in a flash of litigation, why can't Porsche? If there are companies selling DOT "thin" or "lightweight" glass, why not use it?
You could expand this question to ask why Porches in the US market get a SIM card slot -- front and center in the dash -- that doesn't work. There's been so many of these questions over the years and they invariably get brushed aside or the "answer" coming back sounds like a Whitehouse press briefing -- utterly removed from reality.
03-05-2009, 03:58 PM
#33
Three Wheelin'
I agree w/ the premise tho.
It is interesting that Porsche does do this (called a "pre-configuration") for the 911 but that it has more to do with 'stylings' than performance
03-05-2009, 05:40 PM
#36
Rennlist Member
Been interesting to watch all of you talk about the wing and vents in the next GT3.
Something Mauer said over lunch a year after he was installed as head of styling was that he would like to see more of the mechanical aspects of the car "showing" in the design. It was hard to pin him down on what he meant, but I got the sense it would end up having to do with slats and vents, etc.
As a gearhead who appreciates the stripped down design ethic (why I like Ruf's original CTR but not its 993-based CTR2 so much), I was at first interested. But the scoopy gapes and swoops I've been seeing on Porsches of late don't do it for me. Then gain, this, styling, is a VERY subjective thing and it is only my personal opinion. Like many of you, I am not trained as a designer and thus an argument can be made that my opinions are not valid, or are less so. Of course, there is an opposite argument to be made, as well. For me, it boils down to this: I just like the functional simplicity of Porsches past, as well as its modern interpretation in cars like the 996.1 and 997.1. I see that in 356Cs, I see it in 914s, I see it in 928s, and I see it in 964s. But this is another subject.
As to some of the questions raised, the roll bar thing is an issue because it is not DAS doing it so much as *you* the owner doing it. There is an interesting paradox between legal realities in Germany and the U.S. Here, the car as delivered must meet extremely stringent requirements. There is not much leeway, and that is why we miss out on so many cool cars -- and option packages/features. BUT: our laws are relatively care-free with regards to what you do with a car once it is yours. In Germany, they can drive new cars we can't, BUT the laws governing what you can put on the car are VERY (!) strict. Each item must be TüV approved, and that is not an easy process.
This fundamental aspect is at the bottom of much of our hand-wringing. The other is -- and this is my *opinion* based on my years traveling back and forth between the two worlds of Porsche as well as discussions with American racers and engineers and service people close to the pulse of PAG -- an underlying lack of respect for Americans as "hard core" enthusiasts -- or even knowledgeable ones. Don't get me wrong, I sense a strange mix of admiration and disdain (true from our end, too), but the thing I notice is a subtle (and not so subtle) sense that Americans aren't as serious, somehow.
Of course, I find this odd for several reasons, but nowhere is it more apparent than in the Tip/stick ratio between the two markets. The Germans have ordered WAY more Tips as a percentage than Americans. The E60 M5 SMG-only fiasco is another example. BMW was forced to add a stick after telling us (I was there) at the intro in Austria that there was no reason and no way to offer a stick, that SMG was zuperior. Then they couldn't sell the car in the U.S., so the stick they added was kind of a "Fine. You want a stick? HERE'S a stick from last year's car, poorly integrated)." Maybe some there view it as we are not open to "better" technology, and maybe they miss the idea that we love to be connected to a car, to the experience? To me, at least, that is what hard core is all about.
Of course, these are ramblings and not fully formed thoughts. I remain open-minded about this. I meet Americans who make it easy to see how one would come to the conclusion that we *are* clueless. I also meet Germans who remind me that, at the end of the day, we've got a lot of friends on the other side.
What I would like to see, however, is noticeably smarter and more in-tune individuals in product planning for the Porsches targeted at enthusiasts. Dealer feedback is a good thing, but I wonder if it's ALWAYS a good thing for Porsche's longterm image. Cayennes and Panameras are fine, but if Porsche loses the core and the respect generated there, then the game is lost.
I don't think it will, but some of the cars (and now options) denied to Americans are, in my opinion, a failure to serve core customers -- even if it means it would be a pain to offer them.
pete
P.S. As for SIM cards and the rest, that kind of nitty-gritty stuff CAN be a royal pain across continents. Not defending, just pointing out.
Something Mauer said over lunch a year after he was installed as head of styling was that he would like to see more of the mechanical aspects of the car "showing" in the design. It was hard to pin him down on what he meant, but I got the sense it would end up having to do with slats and vents, etc.
As a gearhead who appreciates the stripped down design ethic (why I like Ruf's original CTR but not its 993-based CTR2 so much), I was at first interested. But the scoopy gapes and swoops I've been seeing on Porsches of late don't do it for me. Then gain, this, styling, is a VERY subjective thing and it is only my personal opinion. Like many of you, I am not trained as a designer and thus an argument can be made that my opinions are not valid, or are less so. Of course, there is an opposite argument to be made, as well. For me, it boils down to this: I just like the functional simplicity of Porsches past, as well as its modern interpretation in cars like the 996.1 and 997.1. I see that in 356Cs, I see it in 914s, I see it in 928s, and I see it in 964s. But this is another subject.
As to some of the questions raised, the roll bar thing is an issue because it is not DAS doing it so much as *you* the owner doing it. There is an interesting paradox between legal realities in Germany and the U.S. Here, the car as delivered must meet extremely stringent requirements. There is not much leeway, and that is why we miss out on so many cool cars -- and option packages/features. BUT: our laws are relatively care-free with regards to what you do with a car once it is yours. In Germany, they can drive new cars we can't, BUT the laws governing what you can put on the car are VERY (!) strict. Each item must be TüV approved, and that is not an easy process.
This fundamental aspect is at the bottom of much of our hand-wringing. The other is -- and this is my *opinion* based on my years traveling back and forth between the two worlds of Porsche as well as discussions with American racers and engineers and service people close to the pulse of PAG -- an underlying lack of respect for Americans as "hard core" enthusiasts -- or even knowledgeable ones. Don't get me wrong, I sense a strange mix of admiration and disdain (true from our end, too), but the thing I notice is a subtle (and not so subtle) sense that Americans aren't as serious, somehow.
Of course, I find this odd for several reasons, but nowhere is it more apparent than in the Tip/stick ratio between the two markets. The Germans have ordered WAY more Tips as a percentage than Americans. The E60 M5 SMG-only fiasco is another example. BMW was forced to add a stick after telling us (I was there) at the intro in Austria that there was no reason and no way to offer a stick, that SMG was zuperior. Then they couldn't sell the car in the U.S., so the stick they added was kind of a "Fine. You want a stick? HERE'S a stick from last year's car, poorly integrated)." Maybe some there view it as we are not open to "better" technology, and maybe they miss the idea that we love to be connected to a car, to the experience? To me, at least, that is what hard core is all about.
Of course, these are ramblings and not fully formed thoughts. I remain open-minded about this. I meet Americans who make it easy to see how one would come to the conclusion that we *are* clueless. I also meet Germans who remind me that, at the end of the day, we've got a lot of friends on the other side.
What I would like to see, however, is noticeably smarter and more in-tune individuals in product planning for the Porsches targeted at enthusiasts. Dealer feedback is a good thing, but I wonder if it's ALWAYS a good thing for Porsche's longterm image. Cayennes and Panameras are fine, but if Porsche loses the core and the respect generated there, then the game is lost.
I don't think it will, but some of the cars (and now options) denied to Americans are, in my opinion, a failure to serve core customers -- even if it means it would be a pain to offer them.
pete
P.S. As for SIM cards and the rest, that kind of nitty-gritty stuff CAN be a royal pain across continents. Not defending, just pointing out.
03-05-2009, 09:11 PM
#39
GT3 player par excellence
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03-05-2009, 09:13 PM
#40
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Been interesting to watch all of you talk about the wing and vents in the next GT3.
Something Mauer said over lunch a year after he was installed as head of styling was that he would like to see more of the mechanical aspects of the car "showing" in the design. It was hard to pin him down on what he meant, but I got the sense it would end up having to do with slats and vents, etc.
Something Mauer said over lunch a year after he was installed as head of styling was that he would like to see more of the mechanical aspects of the car "showing" in the design. It was hard to pin him down on what he meant, but I got the sense it would end up having to do with slats and vents, etc.
03-06-2009, 12:10 AM
#41
Been interesting to watch all of you talk about the wing and vents in the next GT3.
Something Mauer said over lunch a year after he was installed as head of styling was that he would like to see more of the mechanical aspects of the car "showing" in the design. It was hard to pin him down on what he meant, but I got the sense it would end up having to do with slats and vents, etc.
As a gearhead who appreciates the stripped down design ethic (why I like Ruf's original CTR but not its 993-based CTR2 so much), I was at first interested. But the scoopy gapes and swoops I've been seeing on Porsches of late don't do it for me. Then gain, this, styling, is a VERY subjective thing and it is only my personal opinion. Like many of you, I am not trained as a designer and thus an argument can be made that my opinions are not valid, or are less so. Of course, there is an opposite argument to be made, as well. For me, it boils down to this: I just like the functional simplicity of Porsches past, as well as its modern interpretation in cars like the 996.1 and 997.1. I see that in 356Cs, I see it in 914s, I see it in 928s, and I see it in 964s. But this is another subject.
As to some of the questions raised, the roll bar thing is an issue because it is not DAS doing it so much as *you* the owner doing it. There is an interesting paradox between legal realities in Germany and the U.S. Here, the car as delivered must meet extremely stringent requirements. There is not much leeway, and that is why we miss out on so many cool cars -- and option packages/features. BUT: our laws are relatively care-free with regards to what you do with a car once it is yours. In Germany, they can drive new cars we can't, BUT the laws governing what you can put on the car are VERY (!) strict. Each item must be TüV approved, and that is not an easy process.
This fundamental aspect is at the bottom of much of our hand-wringing. The other is -- and this is my *opinion* based on my years traveling back and forth between the two worlds of Porsche as well as discussions with American racers and engineers and service people close to the pulse of PAG -- an underlying lack of respect for Americans as "hard core" enthusiasts -- or even knowledgeable ones. Don't get me wrong, I sense a strange mix of admiration and disdain (true from our end, too), but the thing I notice is a subtle (and not so subtle) sense that Americans aren't as serious, somehow.
Of course, I find this odd for several reasons, but nowhere is it more apparent than in the Tip/stick ratio between the two markets. The Germans have ordered WAY more Tips as a percentage than Americans. The E60 M5 SMG-only fiasco is another example. BMW was forced to add a stick after telling us (I was there) at the intro in Austria that there was no reason and no way to offer a stick, that SMG was zuperior. Then they couldn't sell the car in the U.S., so the stick they added was kind of a "Fine. You want a stick? HERE'S a stick from last year's car, poorly integrated)." Maybe some q1there view it as we are not open to "better" technology, and maybe they miss the idea that we love to be connected to a car, to the experience? To me, at least, that is what hard core is all about.
Of course, these are ramblings and not fully formed thoughts. I remain open-minded about this. I meet Americans who make it easy to see how one would come to the conclusion that we *are* clueless. I also meet Germans who remind me that, at the end of the day, we've got a lot of friends on the other side.
What I would like to see, however, is noticeably smarter and more in-tune individuals in product planning for the Porsches targeted at enthusiasts. Dealer feedback is a good thing, but I wonder if it's ALWAYS a good thing for Porsche's longterm image. Cayennes and Panameras are fine, but if Porsche loses the core and the respect generated there, then the game is lost.
I don't think it will, but some of the cars (and now options) denied to Americans are, in my opinion, a failure to serve core customers -- even if it means it would be a pain to offer them.
pete
P.S. As for SIM cards and the rest, that kind of nitty-gritty stuff CAN be a royal pain across continents. Not defending, just pointing out.
Something Mauer said over lunch a year after he was installed as head of styling was that he would like to see more of the mechanical aspects of the car "showing" in the design. It was hard to pin him down on what he meant, but I got the sense it would end up having to do with slats and vents, etc.
As a gearhead who appreciates the stripped down design ethic (why I like Ruf's original CTR but not its 993-based CTR2 so much), I was at first interested. But the scoopy gapes and swoops I've been seeing on Porsches of late don't do it for me. Then gain, this, styling, is a VERY subjective thing and it is only my personal opinion. Like many of you, I am not trained as a designer and thus an argument can be made that my opinions are not valid, or are less so. Of course, there is an opposite argument to be made, as well. For me, it boils down to this: I just like the functional simplicity of Porsches past, as well as its modern interpretation in cars like the 996.1 and 997.1. I see that in 356Cs, I see it in 914s, I see it in 928s, and I see it in 964s. But this is another subject.
As to some of the questions raised, the roll bar thing is an issue because it is not DAS doing it so much as *you* the owner doing it. There is an interesting paradox between legal realities in Germany and the U.S. Here, the car as delivered must meet extremely stringent requirements. There is not much leeway, and that is why we miss out on so many cool cars -- and option packages/features. BUT: our laws are relatively care-free with regards to what you do with a car once it is yours. In Germany, they can drive new cars we can't, BUT the laws governing what you can put on the car are VERY (!) strict. Each item must be TüV approved, and that is not an easy process.
This fundamental aspect is at the bottom of much of our hand-wringing. The other is -- and this is my *opinion* based on my years traveling back and forth between the two worlds of Porsche as well as discussions with American racers and engineers and service people close to the pulse of PAG -- an underlying lack of respect for Americans as "hard core" enthusiasts -- or even knowledgeable ones. Don't get me wrong, I sense a strange mix of admiration and disdain (true from our end, too), but the thing I notice is a subtle (and not so subtle) sense that Americans aren't as serious, somehow.
Of course, I find this odd for several reasons, but nowhere is it more apparent than in the Tip/stick ratio between the two markets. The Germans have ordered WAY more Tips as a percentage than Americans. The E60 M5 SMG-only fiasco is another example. BMW was forced to add a stick after telling us (I was there) at the intro in Austria that there was no reason and no way to offer a stick, that SMG was zuperior. Then they couldn't sell the car in the U.S., so the stick they added was kind of a "Fine. You want a stick? HERE'S a stick from last year's car, poorly integrated)." Maybe some q1there view it as we are not open to "better" technology, and maybe they miss the idea that we love to be connected to a car, to the experience? To me, at least, that is what hard core is all about.
Of course, these are ramblings and not fully formed thoughts. I remain open-minded about this. I meet Americans who make it easy to see how one would come to the conclusion that we *are* clueless. I also meet Germans who remind me that, at the end of the day, we've got a lot of friends on the other side.
What I would like to see, however, is noticeably smarter and more in-tune individuals in product planning for the Porsches targeted at enthusiasts. Dealer feedback is a good thing, but I wonder if it's ALWAYS a good thing for Porsche's longterm image. Cayennes and Panameras are fine, but if Porsche loses the core and the respect generated there, then the game is lost.
I don't think it will, but some of the cars (and now options) denied to Americans are, in my opinion, a failure to serve core customers -- even if it means it would be a pain to offer them.
pete
P.S. As for SIM cards and the rest, that kind of nitty-gritty stuff CAN be a royal pain across continents. Not defending, just pointing out.
Still, I don't see any difference between ordering an after-market bar (or a Tequipment bar via "alternate" channels) and then having the local dealer install it.
For some reason this reminds me of the first time I saw the order guide for the 993. I was excited to sit down for some quality time only to be disappointed to see that all those pages were just where and what type of leather you'd like. "Real" options amounted to vague references to an LSD and even the Motor Sound Package wasn't an exhaust, just a tin cup on the air intake and some holes in the filter box -- not that it wasn't a great option ... I was hoping to choose springs and dampers, rotors and calipers, even choose solid engine and trans mounts or spherical control arm joints. No such luck. Along the lines of the "package" idea, at that time, the killer package, if you could afford it, was the C4S -- turbo body, turbo brakes ... any questions? : )
Back to wondering what's going on with Porsche, for whatever arcane reason, auto makers think that $2500 for a piece of junk navigation system that's less convenient and less functional than a $699 portable that includes over-the-air map updates and live traffic. It's just insulting -- another example of "what the market will bear."
I wonder what PCNA and PAG would say about dealer service departments installing roll bars, race shell seats, six point harnesses, fire-ex, track pads, etc.
It's a completely separate and infinitely more thought-provoking topic to consider future 911 designs with more visible mechanical element. The last thing I'd choose would be vents and slats or the gaping front of the current designs. I'd like to see the front of the 911 go to A arms and push rod coil-overs, purposefully exposed brake ducts and radiators, exposed exhausts and mufflers with real cold air intakes and visible intercoolers and turbos.
I'm not talking about something obvious like a "shaker" but being able to peek through the back of an aerodynamic opening to see the suspension or to be able to see the turbos glowing behind the rear wheels.
I think it would be an engineering walk in the park to design an integrated six point roll cage into the chassis of the GT cars. Just make sure it complies with whatever sanctioning body etc. Offer those special chassis cars for a modest $10K premium.
As you say, there's many ways Porsche could open new revenue opportunities around these enthusiast options. At the very least, just package up sets of option part numbers and make them available -- after all, that's basically what an after-market shop is: the time and research to find all the good stuff from overseas that can be made to work in local cars.
As someone else pointed out, once you spec a GT3, it gets pricey quickly. If you spec a GT3 to GT2 equipment levels, then add the RS premium, hell, the GT2 is practically a bargain because it's got that engine in there for a few dollars more.
Given the price, I expect the nose-lift will be a rare option. Other than in San Francisco. I expect the engine mounts will be very popular. Until we drive them and discover it's far cheaper to just buy solid mounts and be done. Ho hum.
Too early to start debating whether I'll take a GT3, but if they were offering PDK, I don't think I'd be debating. (ps. still curious to hear your thoughts on which car makes for the most PDK fun.)
03-06-2009, 12:41 AM
#43
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excmag and carrera gt:
We need to keep in mind that the GT3 is a niche vehicle for the marque, albeit a necessary one from their marketing pov.
I'm sure you'd agree that Porsche has done their mktg research, gathered their statistics, calculated profit margin requirements, etc on this model. It's my view that they're successfull enough at this point not to place nearly as much emphasis here as they would've in the past given their elevated sales numbers in the present day (the current economy notwithstanding) -- remember when sales of 5000 911's was the status quo?
That said, I for one am amazed that the GT3 even exists. Yes, I know it's due to redirection of funds re: lack of factory-based racing programs, but still...
We must keep in mind that (esp. with Weidking, and who can fault him) all things are business decisions. That said, it could be argued that the GT3 is necessary to fuel the enthusiast flames that help maintain the integrity of the marque (leastcase in the eyes of the mag reviewers) at the forefront with regard to that very integrity. In the end, though, it's truly about the mfgr's survival and profitability.
Apologies for the perhaps overly aerial viewpoint.
We need to keep in mind that the GT3 is a niche vehicle for the marque, albeit a necessary one from their marketing pov.
I'm sure you'd agree that Porsche has done their mktg research, gathered their statistics, calculated profit margin requirements, etc on this model. It's my view that they're successfull enough at this point not to place nearly as much emphasis here as they would've in the past given their elevated sales numbers in the present day (the current economy notwithstanding) -- remember when sales of 5000 911's was the status quo?
That said, I for one am amazed that the GT3 even exists. Yes, I know it's due to redirection of funds re: lack of factory-based racing programs, but still...
We must keep in mind that (esp. with Weidking, and who can fault him) all things are business decisions. That said, it could be argued that the GT3 is necessary to fuel the enthusiast flames that help maintain the integrity of the marque (leastcase in the eyes of the mag reviewers) at the forefront with regard to that very integrity. In the end, though, it's truly about the mfgr's survival and profitability.
Apologies for the perhaps overly aerial viewpoint.
03-06-2009, 12:50 AM
#44
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Pricing, I suppose, will be a primary factor, however, utility-wise, they're related to independent uses.
So, are the majority of GT3s track-only vehicles (emphasizing the mount option), or are they dual-duty (emphasizing the lift option)?
03-06-2009, 10:08 AM
#45
Three Wheelin'
^ & below:
My question re this option is:
Is the design purpose of the mounts to make the car more street-able, ie push the button and soften the same to isolate vibrations and add comfort; OR is the design purpose to make the car more track-able, ie push the button and tighten same adding performance ?????
If the former, I will likely pass. If the latter, I am interested. Given the discussion here, and Pete's thoughts, I suspect the former may be the correct answer.
Anyone know? If not, what says the Board?
Is the design purpose of the mounts to make the car more street-able, ie push the button and soften the same to isolate vibrations and add comfort; OR is the design purpose to make the car more track-able, ie push the button and tighten same adding performance ?????
If the former, I will likely pass. If the latter, I am interested. Given the discussion here, and Pete's thoughts, I suspect the former may be the correct answer.
Anyone know? If not, what says the Board?