Wayward

Pete,

I am frankly stunned by your asessment. Which is not to say that I'm a non-believer or doubt your opinion. In other words, I'm not doubting your impressions, just surprised.

Is this a track or street oriented observation?

Also, do you feel that Porsche will address this perceived issue with the 991/998?


All things considered, can an R8 dust a GT3 on any given day, all other things being equal?

Searching for further insight here...

Petevb

Well that’s one of the best responses to a post I’ve seen. Thanks for that- I’m very glad it made sense and you found it useful.

BTW, on the topic of cars just for fun I think Hayden may have mentioned my ’69 GT3 project- very much a car for the US. Looking forward to your take when we get that one sorted...
You don't have a bad job, you know that? ;-)

stout

Frankly, I was stunned by my opinion, too. After so many disappointments from VAG in terms of steering and suspension over the years, I didn't know what to expect. My observations are strictly street-oriented; I have not tracked the R8 and maybe its bulk would become a problem there -- but then the same could be said about a GT3 RS if you drive a 911 Spec racer....

The journalist who brought the R8 is a good friend and owns a 997 GT3. He was testing the Audi for Sports Car International, but met me to go run the Excellence loop. I happened to have a 997 T4S in on a loan, so -- while fully recognizing it was not the right 911 for true comparison purposes (though what really is? C4S X51? Turbo?) -- I brought that and we traded seats over 600-800 miles on the North Loop and then some.

That R8 made the T4S feel heavy, soft, old, dated, and uninspired; I was shocked how much so. However, I found that the merits of the 911 were still present. With quite a bit less power, inferior balance, and inferior suspension, you could still keep the T4S in the mix in terms of pace. But here's the thing: you had to really USE the T4S to do so, and over rougher sections, I felt like I was using the car harder than I like to on the street. Not so much in terms of speed or commitment, but in terms of mechanical sympathy. Though I wasn't pushing past the boundaries of safety or sanity, the car was past its "happy place." It felt more like work than fun.

The R8, meanwhile, was no fuss, no muss -- but WAY more fun and far more thrilling. There was probably (a bit) more speed to access, but you felt so alive you didn't have to press harder to get the adrenaline rush. And then -- past the chassis' goodness -- there was the V8's noise, the sound of the shifter clanking through its gate, and the overall sense of occasion.

To answer your question, I doubt the R8 is "faster" than a GT3 on a given road with equal drivers. But here's the thing for me: The only time I care about a fast car being fastER than another car is on an autocross course or on a race track. In a street car, the experience (the fun, the thrill, the sounds, the feel) is more important to me than the speed. That's why, if I wasn't going to track it, was stuck with it, and couldn't modify it, I'd take a Cayman 2.7 over a 997 Turbo.

The R8 positively rocked my world. I was casually working on a story called "The Enemy Within" as a 2-pager based on the SCI test, but I only had so much space in that issue and was already hacking away at one of Porsche's new cars for something else (probably damper-related! ). I also wondered how many of my readers could stand to hear the R8 shredded the 997 up -- not that they ever listen when we suggest how good Boxsters are.

All this happened before 997.2, and I think Porsche has addressed much of it with the new 997s. Major improvements to PASM, better engines, and transmission choices fully on par with the R8 are all in there. Given the improvements to those cars and the stunning achievement that is the 997 GT2, I think the 997.2 GT3 is very, very promising...

I have to say I'd probably buy a 997 over an R8 for another reason: it's got kid seats in back and, visually, it's a Camry here in SF and that's very appealing to me. Less show, just as much go. Finally, while I'm a mid-engined guy, I've learned to love the 911's handling traits as well as the unique opportunity and challenge they present. And I've already got a mid-engined car.

Now, back on topic: Much of what NJ-GT says about his observations re: 997.1 GT3 RS handling match up to my feelings/perceptions. They are the same areas for improvement I see, and the same areas I think suffered as a result of Motorsport being VERY busy at the time. Based on my time in the new 2 and conversations with key people, my bet is many of these areas will be addressed in the new car.

I just wish I was excited about the new styling. But I will hold out until I see the car in person. For me, the current/old GT3/RS is a high point among water-cooled 911s, and maybe all 911s.

pete

P.S. How do you guys get any work done?!? I gotta get off this soap box and back to work! Working on a test of the Manthey GT2 for the next issue. Looks to be pretty sick. The dude's no joke: "...Manthey only offers EU drive-by noise compliant versions of its exhaust systems. Says Olaf: 'We have no ‘export’ versions. We only make things that genuinely improve performance. While I acknowledge that ‘show and shine’ is a legitimate part of enthusiast culture, that is not what Manthey-Racing and Manthey Motors are about.'"

Carrera GT

Well, I guess we can assume Excellence will be late to the presses this month ... : )

I've only been to Thunderhill once where an R8 showed up in. Driven by very competent folks, it was no match for '6 or '7 GT3, but it sounded great. Maybe not as great as the Benz Black Series, but still Audi has got the V8 sounding good. In my humble, when a car is exciting and fun on the street and feels fast, the stopwatch reminds us that looking and feeling fast is usually the opposite of actually being fast.

I don't know that "died in the wool" Porsche enthusiasts reading Excellence would take it too seriously if an "op ed" piece said the R8 was a legitimate competitor to a GT3, but I wonder if perhaps folks in various parts of Germany would take note.

For me, if Porsche built a 430 HP Boxster that would probably be faster than a GT3 in all circumstances, I'd still rather take the GT3 to the track. I just prefer the rear-engine. The GT3 is never the quickest car out there anyway. And Porsche never brings the most HP. And I don't see how a muscular Boxster or Cayman would do any harm to Porsche -- even if it cannibalized a few sales, they're still sales. Porsche is making the Panamera -- so let's not pretend they're too proud to make a Boxster that's faster than a 911.

stout

In terms of specs and money, the R8 doesn't perfectly match up against any 911. GT3 is similar money and has similar power, but is RWD and a different kind of car. C4S doesn't have the beans and is cheaper. Turbo is WAY more torque and power...

Coincidence?

pete

N-Dub

Touche!!!

Carrera GT

No coincidence I'm sure. Porsche still has its product management thinking stuck back in the early 90's -- as per my comment on a 440hp Boxster, I think Porsche management can't see past a simple "flag ship" approach with a single brand to worry about, yet they happily pollute their brand with the Cayenne and Panamera (they're not quite seeing what their dealerships look like now, let alone in a year or two once the yards are full of 50% discounted sedans and SUVs.)

The near-death experience of the 928 as pretender to the throne has scared the ***** off Porsche and they're still sitting in a glass beside their racing trophies. Porsche needs to "grow a pair" -- build affordable, giant killing, *****-out cars and go racing again. Simple as that.

It's fun to watch the multi-million dollar gentleman racers, the Spiders, the RSRs. All good, but far from reach. Even the Cup is an esoteric moneyed up clash of the ultra-rich.

The SUV and the family sedan should come from VW and Audi -- the defining sports cars of this decade should come from Porsche just as they did in the 90's, the 80's, the 70's and the 60's. It's been a long time between drinks for Porsche. As you pointed out in one of your recent flurry of "wall of words" posts (which I'm sure many of us really enjoy reading almost like an supplemental "no holds barred" editorial from the mag) the sense of expectation when the Carrera GT was taking shape and the promise of sensational new technology reaching the 911 driver created a sense of great things to come. No such luck. And it's still not too late by any means -- PDK in a C4S is not to be sniffed at, especially with the eventual Power Kit option, but it's expensive and it's not the stuff of great 911's. All of these thoughts lead back to the one big idea of a very small 911 "lightweight."

am722

Completely agree with all of these points. I wonder whether or not Porsche has painted itself in a corner with its current model lineup. As much as it's obvious that the Cayman is an excellent platform for performance Porsche pigeonholed it when it introduced it as basically an econoPorsche and detuned it to keep the 911 on top. To now embrace it as the performance king in the lineup would leave the 911 in an awkward position. I personally have no particular nostalgia for the rear-engined design and would love to see them come out with a mid-engined ringer incorporating the lessons learned from the CGT but I don't see it happening unless they (1) dump the rear seats from the 911 and move up the engine or (2) kill the 911 altogether and come out with a mid-engined successor. There is historical precedent for (1) in the GT1 Strassenversion which is good, but I doubt PAG has the stones for (2) after 40+ years of production.

A gentleman in my parking garage sometimes drives his 993 to work and parks near me and I am always depressed to see how much smaller it is than my car. If the 991 gets even bigger than the current model and continues the insufficient incremental performance gains we've been seeing then I'll seriously consider moving brands or at least driving older models.

Apropos only slightly of this is this thread I found surprisingly interesting on F-chat, about the possibility that Ferrari will throw in the towel on improving roadcar performance and focus on the visceral driving experience. I'm not quite sure what I make of that, but I suppose it is an argument for the retention of the rear-engined design and the continuation of the 911 line in its current form.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=234482

cello

^ Well said.

This thread is a very good read.

GTEE3

"an R8 and a GT3 are similar money"...last time I checked, the R8s had quite a hefty premium, based on their color.

zellamsee

This thread is a great read. I feel like I received a free mid-month supplement to Excellence Mag. Right on.

If I may offer some possible perspective, and play devil's advocate a bit more, my guess is that Stout is to Porsche as Robert Parker is to wine . . . and I bet Parker would describe the difference between a 96 rated wine and a 98 rated wine as *vast* whereas I am not so sure I would do so. Point is your experience may differ depending on numerous factors, such as level of experience, mood, setting, expectations and personal preferences. Who knows, you may even enjoy the 96 rated bottle more than the 98. Personal preferences also have a way of changing with experience or just with time. Heck, I used to drink a lot of Cabs, but lately I have been enjoying Pinots. And I doubt that Stout (or any other reviewer) would consider a GT3/RS as a bottle of Two Buck Chuck, and a GT2 (or R8) as a bottle of Petrus.

Now, I just need to prove the validity to my theory. Anyone out there want to lend me their GT2 for an afternoon? Anyone? I will even throw in a free bottle of wine.

PogueMoHone

I hope you are wrong on that one! Tanzer maybe!

Didn't we all have mutual acquaintance who kept a GT2 for a very short period of time because (he thought?) it was boring and unrewarding?

I am a fan of the GT2, always was, but the RS is a more practical car. That is, unless you the ability and presence of mind to keep the turbos spooled under heavy braking in race track conditions. There are not many (I know) who can do that.

Carrera GT

Ha! I could see that coming a mile away! Some of us drink the same as Parker (and I'm sure Mr Stout would happily take his pay check!) but not all of us share Mr Parker's enthusiasm for the extreme reds, the Aussie Shiraz and its ilk, but I wouldn't paint Pete Stout as someone who insists upon "two smoking barrels" as the definition of a 911 in the same way that Parker wants a red to win a knock-down, drag-out street fight. If you read Stout's recent posts, I think he's arguing for the "Claret" of 911's, the lighter, quaffable drop for everyday enjoyment and excitement, the rewarding companion to any meal or road.

Okay, I'm all out of eloquent. I'm with Parker -- give me the 707 or the Grange, both barrels blazing, the GT2 of red wine. I'll take my Claret or Chianti more like the Carrera -- enjoyable, rewarding, but ultimately never as satisfying to the liver or the adrenal gland.

PogueMoHone

^

That's why I said Tanzer. You have youth on your side, so there is hope for you yet! And the second bottle will always take care of the liver!

zellamsee

This is great! Too funny.

Boost can definitely be tricky, and I definitely enjoy the linear power of the NA RS.

Yes, I know who you are talking about! I think he had the GT2 for weeks (not even months)! Then again, given the other cars in his stable, I can understand why he didn't keep it.