GrantG

That's the $64,000 question. Will it have a real dry sump motor? If not, then it's probably just a bit lighter than GT3 like in 2007-2008 and maybe adds widebody again.

This is the homologation model, so the racecars and this model should share the same motor. Some have said racecars (GT3 Cup and RSR) will use A91 while others contend a holdover from the GT1/964 motors...

NJ-GT

Keeping the same gear ratios, the lower the redline (RPM limit), the closer the engine speeds are in between gears (good). The higher the redline, the wider the engine speed spread between gears (bad).

The 997 GT3 gearing is awfully wrong. Same thing happened with the 996 GT3.

A 3.8 with DFI should provide more torque than the 997 GT3 engine. I concur that the redline will be lower, because the 9A1 has a 81.5mm stroke compared to the 964/993 & 996/997 GT3 of just 76.4mm, a longer stroke is more torque and less RPM. Last year's 997S had a stroke of 82.8, Porsche reduced it by 1.3mm added DFI and just gained 300 rpm on redline.

So with the lower RPM and more torque engines, there is a wider powerband, and gearing is not as critical.

For the 997 GT3 the powerband is in between 6,800 rpm and 8,400 rpm, too narrow, so gearing is very critical.

GrantG

Rad - the part you're missing is that they'll have to make 6th gear significantly taller, so the car can achieve its new higher top speed (more power, similar aero) at lower rpm.

All the ratios will be further apart with a lower revving motor (unless they want it to be sluggish off the line).

High revving motors are more dependent on good gearing, but it also allows for better (lower) gearing (consider F1).

Riz

The RS will have same engine as regular GT3. Use widebody, save 40 lbs, put on some fancy decals and charge $25-30K more!

GrantG

I like to think of it as the $25k sunroof delete option

I sure hope the next US-spec GT3 can be ordered w/o sunroof!

Alan Smithee

I doubt it.

My guess is that the reason for the A91's introduction now across the 997 line instead of with the next 911 generation is due to stricter Euro emissions requirements in the next couple years. I'll bet they can't make either the M96 or the GT1 motor pass.

cello

This is probably true [in part along with (manufacturing) line cost savings]. I put a deposit down on the GT3 and am first in line. We will see what that means. I will say that it is strange and surreal to put $ down and know very very little about the product one is attempting to purchase. Will be reading/following closely to say the least ;-)

911rox

But Grant, we always get the body kit, suspension and brakes on the gt3. We also get far fewer luxuries (expected) and pay at least 20% over base price Carrera S. The gt1 motor was worth 3 times the cost of the M96/97 motor. thats not $14k, thats more like $35k more so I don't think it'll be that easy to get away with it.

I haven't seen any dramatic price increase on the price of the mkII released cars, so it would suggest the new motor wouldn't be considerably more expensive than the m96/97. I don't think Porsche are generous enough to be absorbing costs...

Chris

GrantG

Chris - I certainly agree with you that Porsche will not be absorbing costs or cutting their margins - quite the contrary.

In the past, there was a very big profit margin on the Carrera vs. GT3 based on the cost of the motors. Now, I think the margin will improve for Porsche on the GT3 with much lower costs on the motor.

I think the A91 motor is significantly better than the M96/97, but not sure how much more it costs to make (beyond R&D). There are many fewer parts, so maybe we get a better motor without costing the consumer or Porsche more money (after the R&D is amortized). If there is no RMS issue, this will save the company money in warranty work too.

I think the GT version of the A91 will have some nice enhancements (but not nearly the difference in cost to Porsche between M96/97 and GT1/964 based motors).

NJ-GT

They don't need to make it taller. The 6th gear in the 997 GT3 is good for 208 mph at 8,400 rpm, for a car that barely reaches 193 mph. At 7,800 rpm the same 6th gear is good for 193 mph.

But knowing Porsche, they will install a longer 6th gear for fuel economy. That's exactly the same mess they made with the PDK. Instead of installing a close ratio transmission, they put a 7th gear that is too long, and the 6th gear in the PDK is about the same as the manual transmission 6th gear. The results, extra weight and no performance gains other than the fake no lift upshift (which quite a few of us know how to do with a manual transmission).

GrantG

Yes, but the reason for this is that top speed is supposed to occur at Peak HP, not Redline.

The current GT3 makes max power at 7,600rpm (power falls off after that) according to Porscheusa.com.

If the new car lowers redline, it will lower the rpm where peak power is made too, so the new gearing will need to provide close to 200mph at around 7,000-7,300rpm (as a guess).

As an illustration, the new 997S (with A91 DFI motor) makes max power at 6,500rpm, although its redline is 7,500rpm.

BTW, I totally agree with you about the gearing they chose to use in PDK for the Carreras - that was a wasted opportunity to make a high performance close-ratio 7-speed. I assume that if PDK ever comes to the GT3, they will use a true close-ratio 7-speed gearstack (otherwise I'll be even less interested in PDK than I already am).

OldGuy

thats just not enough to get me excited about getting another one. I dont even have any excitement for a new RS.

Gotta admit most of this sourness comes from the shenanagins the dealers pulled last time. I still have a VERY sour attitude after what PCNA did to the Porsche faithful last time. Pulling cars from customers to flip them and make the $50k over MSRP. I still think about that every time I see a thread for the New
GT3 and RS.

CalgaryGT3

Do you think that will happen this time given the economic conditions? I think the days of paying way over MSRP are long gone but then again people have short memories.

OldGuy

Calgary I hope not but still I remember very well and it may just keep me from another Pcar.
I actually hope they (dealers) suffer abit to pay for the stuff they did last time.
I hope those that had to pay over and especially the ones who were loyal customers
remember.

CalgaryGT3

Blame the idiot customers too though. I'm sorry to say but I just never got how stupid some people can get anyways. Paying over MSRP for a car is just retarded. There are tons of special cars out there for good prices, especially these days. Case in point, I picked up my GT3 with 6K miles for half price.