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Question for those who have installed the mounts on a manual - other than the increased drivetrain noise in the cabin/NHV, did it change the feel of your clutch pedal?
I added the orange mounts this weekend and did my clutch at the same time (new OEM flywheel/clutch kit/fork). Now I'm getting a strong vibration when I press the clutch pedal all the way in. The vibration fades from strong to nothing if I hold the clutch pedal down for a few seconds. It feels tied to RPM because the vibration is stronger if I do a high rev shift vs low rev. I'm trying to figure out if this is the result of the new mounts, or if there might be something wrong with my new clutch (release bearing/flywheel). Any insight would be appreciated.
Question for those who have installed the mounts on a manual - other than the increased drivetrain noise in the cabin/NHV, did it change the feel of your clutch pedal?
I added the orange mounts this weekend and did my clutch at the same time (new OEM flywheel/clutch kit/fork). Now I'm getting a strong vibration when I press the clutch pedal all the way in. The vibration fades from strong to nothing if I hold the clutch pedal down for a few seconds. It feels tied to RPM because the vibration is stronger if I do a high rev shift vs low rev. I'm trying to figure out if this is the result of the new mounts, or if there might be something wrong with my new clutch (release bearing/flywheel). Any insight would be appreciated.
I have these on my manual and do not have this vibration.
Question for those who have installed the mounts on a manual - other than the increased drivetrain noise in the cabin/NHV, did it change the feel of your clutch pedal?
I added the orange mounts this weekend and did my clutch at the same time (new OEM flywheel/clutch kit/fork). Now I'm getting a strong vibration when I press the clutch pedal all the way in. The vibration fades from strong to nothing if I hold the clutch pedal down for a few seconds. It feels tied to RPM because the vibration is stronger if I do a high rev shift vs low rev. I'm trying to figure out if this is the result of the new mounts, or if there might be something wrong with my new clutch (release bearing/flywheel). Any insight would be appreciated.
No vibration on mine. Honestly, I can't tell a difference in NVH either.
I've done several of my friends' cars as well as mine now. For mine I went as stiff as I could go (black transmission and stiffest motor mounts). I had no noticeable increase in NVH on my car. But every car seems to be different. One car I put medium mounts into rattled the sunroof so badly we went to the softest options and finally back to OEM on the motor mounts. In other words ... YMMV.
I've done several of my friends' cars as well as mine now. For mine I went as stiff as I could go (black transmission and stiffest motor mounts). I had no noticeable increase in NVH on my car. But every car seems to be different. One car I put medium mounts into rattled the sunroof so badly we went to the softest options and finally back to OEM on the motor mounts. In other words ... YMMV.
Wayne, would you suggest going with the OEM mounts given the nature of these being unpredictable until installed?
I do not track it as often anymore and my car is mainly a DD, 09’ with 50k miles on it. No issues so far but given it’s been 13 years I’d do this as a preventative item.
Wayne, would you suggest going with the OEM mounts given the nature of these being unpredictable until installed?
I do not track it as often anymore and my car is mainly a DD, 09’ with 50k miles on it. No issues so far but given it’s been 22 years I’d do this as a preventative item.
@vg247 FF's are inserts which do not replace the OEM mounts. It's a whole lot more work to replace the actual mount, so in my opinion I would try the FF insert first and just go with the softer option if your car is a DD.
Wayne, would you suggest going with the OEM mounts given the nature of these being unpredictable until installed?
I do not track it as often anymore and my car is mainly a DD, 09’ with 50k miles on it. No issues so far but given it’s been 13 years I’d do this as a preventative item.
My view was if I replaced the mounts with soft ones I would not go harder and would not get the benefit of harder mounts. If I started hard and the hard was unacceptable I'd have incentive to soften it up. I went with tunable motor mounts and started full hard. If it was bad I could go softer. I saw no problems so I stayed hard and ordered black transmission spacers (bushings, mounts whatever you want to call them). I was happy with those too.
But starting hard was my philosophy as someone who does their own wrenching. Also IMHO these are sports cars rather than luxury sedans. Regardless, the increase in NVH was negligible in my case (not so for others). If you are worried, stay soft. This will satisfy those who are concerned with the reports of 996 M96 motors losing power due to false preignition readings with the harder mounts.
FWIW I didn't change mine until after 120K miles. I saw no difference in tailpipe height when I changed them (haven't noticed any appreciable difference in the other cars I've done). But the reason for the change was due to severe wallow on undulating turns that could cause a full release of my contact patch. The stiffer motor mounts were a major improvement.
TLDR: I replaced the PDK transmission insert with a new Porsche one and installed the FF transmission insert.
At 124k miles, I knew the transmission mount insert was on it's way out, a tell tale sign was a decently loud clunk that I felt and heard when shifting from Park to Drive and Drive to Reverse.
I ordered the FF inserts and got to installing them and discovered two tears in the rubber on the existing transmission mount, see photo 1. With the tears in the mount the FF inserts were reluctant to slide into the mount.
I did a bit of research and discovered the AGA transmission mount tool is not compatible with the PDK transmission due to the bolt sizing on the tool, however I didn't let that stop me from replacing the mount.
I rented the tool from a member here on Rennlist and got to work. Sure enough, the long 8" bolts the AGA tool comes with is 9.5mm, where's the two outer holes on the PDK mount is ~7mm.
I drilled out the outer mount holes on the new mount to 10mm, cut the old mount out (see photo 2), used the AGA tool to press in the new mount, (see photo 3).
With the new mount in the FF inserts slide in without issue.
Replacing the PDK mount isn't impossible, it was definitely challenging and stressful, and took a lot of patience to complete. WARNING, since the tool was not designed for the PDK, be sure to mount the AGA tool mandrels in the correct orientation or else you may not get the last 10mm of the mount into the bore and mushroom the sleeve forcing you to cut out the mount and start all over. Ask me how I know.
You will need a drill-press to help drill out the outer holes.
This task took multiple days to complete. I did this all on my back under the car, all after 10pm.
The clunk when shifting from Park to Drive and Drive to Reverse is still there, but it feels much better. Drivetrain slop feels like it has improved, there's less of a delay when applying throttle to the car responding to my inputs. Gear whine has increased, but only slightly.
Thank you. My FF inserts arrived today. My felt or foam inserts were shot at 42k miles. They look like slices of salami and flake apart with my finger. These are long overdue.
Installed Numeric short shifter, Numeric cables, and Rennline Yellow engine mounts. I hope these inserts complete the upgraded hand to transmission interface on my 997.2 C4S Manual..
Originally Posted by EMC2
My 997.2 PDK has just over 70k miles. I had written previously about how the original PDK Software gave really great, fast and hard (in a good aggressive way) shifts when in Sports Plus mode.
I had wondered whether this could be good for the gearbox, and had also noted that a PDK software update that was done on my car early last year definitely took away the harshness of the shifts in Sport Plus mode (although the speed of shifting was still excellent).
There doesn’t seem to be any official data on why Porsche changed the shifting profile so much. It could have been because some customers didn’t like it, or for the purposes of longevity, or both…who knows)
Nevertheless, the hard shifts would likely have some negative impact over time, at the very least on the transmission mounts.
I coincidentally came across the following Function First Thread on Rennlist, and was intrigued by the idea.
After spending way too much time reading all the reviews and feedback, I decided to order the SOFT inserts as it seemed like the safest bet to get the added support without introducing significant NVH (Noise Vibration Harshness) and potentially get improved shifting behavior at the same time.
In summary, for my needs it was a great choice.
The inserts fill the voids in the OEM bushing, to provide additional support and rigidity. Interestingly in the past many owners, particularly of older 911 models would fill these cavities with urethane based adhesives and other such products to restore rigidity to worn out bushings.
The benefit of the FF mount is that there are several grades of stiffness and it is completely reversible or changeable if you decide to go for a different setup.
Upon inspection, my OEM mount was still in very good condition, but I like the fact that this inexpensive and very simple DIY, provides more ridgidity and could prolong the life of the OEM bushing (and at the same time result in improved shifting performance).
The DIY (attached) from the FF website is very helpful but there are 2 really important differences for the 997.2 PDK that need to be noted.
- There is only a single Torx Bolt through the mount (not 2)
- This bolt has a Torque spec of 63ft libs
- You will need 20mm and 24mm Torx sockets for this
The other bolts connecting the upper and lower mounts to the chassis have a torque spec of 48 ft lbs (this doesn’t include the
actual mounting of the 2 studs which just need to be fully seated (7mm head).
You will also see that the 997.2 has the “STOP” PART #3 shown below. these are not reused.
I personally would not want to do this DIY without a lift but it certainly could be done.
The instructions referenced above are very good and describe the procedure perfectly so I won’t repeat all that.
It should be noted that the transmission needs to be lifted only a few mm in order to pull the main mounting bolt out.
One thing I did which was not necessary was remove the crossmember you will see in the last picture below. This does not need to come off.
I also some PERL water based silicon solution to ease the installation of the insert, and used a rubber mallet to gently tap them into place to make them fully flush. Only one side was a little stubborn and needed some persuasion to fully seat.
Transmission supported and main bolt removed:
OEM Stop removed
Inserts installed
Crossmember replaced
After putting some decent miles on the car, my findings are as follows. Note I have the M&M Street Sport Exhaust so my car is considerably louder than stock.
NVH
- during cold starts no noticeable change at all due to the higher revs
- during warm starts and if idling in Park or Neutral (just did this to experiment) there is some minor noise which is more noticeable if on an incline
- it is difficult to describe but it is not obvious and cannot be heard at all from outside of the car.
- Fortunately when stationary and in gear (e.g. when stopped at traffic light) there is no noise at all
- The above is of no concern to me and I suspect this sound might diminish somewhat after I have a bit more time and miles on the part. Even if it doesn’t, the gains are worth the minor compromise.
- when driving I would say there is a slight change in sound in the car. there seems to be a little more ‘whine’ (i.e. in addition to the intake sound, and a little more mechanical). It’s subtle, but it is a really good sound in my opinion.
- my car is a pure weekend fun car with an "aggressive street" setup so I am even considering trying the next level up in stiffness just for comparison as the NVH is less of a concern for how I use the vehicle.
Shifting
- as mentioned earlier there was nothing wrong with the shift performance or the OEM mount to begin with
- the only thing I did not like was downshifting from 2nd to 1st in Sport PLUS mode at low speeds (i.e. when coming to a stop), where there would often be a bit of a ‘clunk’ sound and some jerkiness.
- this clunking seems to have been reduced/improved quite a bit
- regarding all other shifts; whilst I am being overly cautious about being influenced by any potential placebo effect, I still think the shifting in Sports Plus is better. Still very fast but somehow more seamless and direct.
- going to keep driving and will provide an update over the coming months
Overall this is one of the easiest DIY’s you can do for both the preventative and performance benefit you get. I took it slow as I was being extra cautious with everything, having not worked on this part of my car before, and it took about 1.5 hours. I could probably do it again in about 45min’s now that I’ve done it once.
My compliments go the the guys at Function First. Great product and great service also when I had some questions for them.
I know this is a few years ago, but I just installed these FF inserts. The whine you are hearing, I think I just got it. I thought initially I messed something up on install. Does the whine stay forever? It’s only on deceleration. Normal? It almost translates a little to the front of the car, did you notice that?
Originally Posted by EMC2
My 997.2 PDK has just over 70k miles. I had written previously about how the original PDK Software gave really great, fast and hard (in a good aggressive way) shifts when in Sports Plus mode.
I had wondered whether this could be good for the gearbox, and had also noted that a PDK software update that was done on my car early last year definitely took away the harshness of the shifts in Sport Plus mode (although the speed of shifting was still excellent).
There doesn’t seem to be any official data on why Porsche changed the shifting profile so much. It could have been because some customers didn’t like it, or for the purposes of longevity, or both…who knows)
Nevertheless, the hard shifts would likely have some negative impact over time, at the very least on the transmission mounts.
I coincidentally came across the following Function First Thread on Rennlist, and was intrigued by the idea.
After spending way too much time reading all the reviews and feedback, I decided to order the SOFT inserts as it seemed like the safest bet to get the added support without introducing significant NVH (Noise Vibration Harshness) and potentially get improved shifting behavior at the same time.
In summary, for my needs it was a great choice.
The inserts fill the voids in the OEM bushing, to provide additional support and rigidity. Interestingly in the past many owners, particularly of older 911 models would fill these cavities with urethane based adhesives and other such products to restore rigidity to worn out bushings.
The benefit of the FF mount is that there are several grades of stiffness and it is completely reversible or changeable if you decide to go for a different setup.
Upon inspection, my OEM mount was still in very good condition, but I like the fact that this inexpensive and very simple DIY, provides more ridgidity and could prolong the life of the OEM bushing (and at the same time result in improved shifting performance).
The DIY (attached) from the FF website is very helpful but there are 2 really important differences for the 997.2 PDK that need to be noted.
- There is only a single Torx Bolt through the mount (not 2)
- This bolt has a Torque spec of 63ft libs
- You will need 20mm and 24mm Torx sockets for this
The other bolts connecting the upper and lower mounts to the chassis have a torque spec of 48 ft lbs (this doesn’t include the
actual mounting of the 2 studs which just need to be fully seated (7mm head).
You will also see that the 997.2 has the “STOP” PART #3 shown below. these are not reused.
I personally would not want to do this DIY without a lift but it certainly could be done.
The instructions referenced above are very good and describe the procedure perfectly so I won’t repeat all that.
It should be noted that the transmission needs to be lifted only a few mm in order to pull the main mounting bolt out.
One thing I did which was not necessary was remove the crossmember you will see in the last picture below. This does not need to come off.
I also some PERL water based silicon solution to ease the installation of the insert, and used a rubber mallet to gently tap them into place to make them fully flush. Only one side was a little stubborn and needed some persuasion to fully seat.
Transmission supported and main bolt removed:
OEM Stop removed
Inserts installed
Crossmember replaced
After putting some decent miles on the car, my findings are as follows. Note I have the M&M Street Sport Exhaust so my car is considerably louder than stock.
NVH
- during cold starts no noticeable change at all due to the higher revs
- during warm starts and if idling in Park or Neutral (just did this to experiment) there is some minor noise which is more noticeable if on an incline
- it is difficult to describe but it is not obvious and cannot be heard at all from outside of the car.
- Fortunately when stationary and in gear (e.g. when stopped at traffic light) there is no noise at all
- The above is of no concern to me and I suspect this sound might diminish somewhat after I have a bit more time and miles on the part. Even if it doesn’t, the gains are worth the minor compromise.
- when driving I would say there is a slight change in sound in the car. there seems to be a little more ‘whine’ (i.e. in addition to the intake sound, and a little more mechanical). It’s subtle, but it is a really good sound in my opinion.
- my car is a pure weekend fun car with an "aggressive street" setup so I am even considering trying the next level up in stiffness just for comparison as the NVH is less of a concern for how I use the vehicle.
Shifting
- as mentioned earlier there was nothing wrong with the shift performance or the OEM mount to begin with
- the only thing I did not like was downshifting from 2nd to 1st in Sport PLUS mode at low speeds (i.e. when coming to a stop), where there would often be a bit of a ‘clunk’ sound and some jerkiness.
- this clunking seems to have been reduced/improved quite a bit
- regarding all other shifts; whilst I am being overly cautious about being influenced by any potential placebo effect, I still think the shifting in Sports Plus is better. Still very fast but somehow more seamless and direct.
- going to keep driving and will provide an update over the coming months
Overall this is one of the easiest DIY’s you can do for both the preventative and performance benefit you get. I took it slow as I was being extra cautious with everything, having not worked on this part of my car before, and it took about 1.5 hours. I could probably do it again in about 45min’s now that I’ve done it once.
My compliments go the the guys at Function First. Great product and great service also when I had some questions for them.
Apologies for the thread jumping.
Does anyone have pictures of the installation of the Powerflex (Yellow) Gearbox Front Mounting Bush Insert (model PFR57-533)?
I understand that its shape is slightly different (upside down).
Are the torque specs the same?
Thanks in advance
(just like the POWERFLEX which is installed in my 997.2 PDK).
So I understand that the direction of the Mounting Bush Insert does not matter...(because it is symmetrical).
It's a bit confusing because the original part is written "VORN" (front direction) and also in the diagram it is depicted in the opposite direction (contradicting each other).
Now I see that in the attached video the bracket is installed in the opposite direction. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JweVvduqeak
(just like the POWERFLEX which is installed in my 997.2 PDK).
So I understand that the direction of the Mounting Bush Insert does not matter...(because it is symmetrical).
It's a bit confusing because the original part is written "VORN" (front direction) and also in the diagram it is depicted in the opposite direction (contradicting each other).
I think the DIY video from Pelican has the parts oriented incorrectly.
From FF install manual: "Orient the Inserts so that their respective sidewalls extend toward the front of the car, and then slip them into the OEM bushing from either side until they are fully seated" - this follows the orientation of OEM bushing foam pad pieces.
Visual reference:
Torque specs from workshop manual - install & torque transmission bracket first, then holder (front piece) second:
FYI - I removed the inserts to go back to a more civil driving experience (mine is 6MT). The vibration on my butt around 2800RPM was fun for only a little bit.
Last edited by waterpanda; 10-08-2023 at 09:00 AM.
I think the DIY video from Pelican has the parts oriented incorrectly.
From FF install manual: "Orient the Inserts so that their respective sidewalls extend toward the front of the car, and then slip them into the OEM bushing from either side until they are fully seated" - this follows the orientation of OEM bushing foam pad pieces.
Visual reference:
Torque specs from workshop manual - install & torque transmission bracket first, then holder (front piece) second:
FYI - I removed the inserts to go back to a more civil driving experience (mine is 6MT). The vibration on my butt around 2800RPM was fun for only a little bit.
Hi
I have seen the FF installation instructions (which generally concern all types of mounts, but not necessarily 997.2...). https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/06...f?v=1666453352
Also, I understand that the mount (of 997.2 PDK & Manual) is symmetrical so I don't think the orientation has any significance.
It would be interesting to get a reference from Pelican Parts or Function First on the matter. Interesting to know.
Regarding the torque specification:
As far as I know (also according to FF), the torque specification with the addition of BUSH INSERT is 65NM "transmission bracket to body" and 85NM and "transmission bracket to transmission".
I have not seen a specification of 120NM anywhere. Probably not the 997.2 PDK.
[BTW, in my torque book (referring to the sponge that comes in the original) the torques are 65NM all bolts.]
I too have found conflicting torque values on various forum thread posts during my install - so my main source of truth was the workshop manuals since my trust goes towards the manufacturer.
I would guess the shape of the inserts just follows same design of original foam pieces - perhaps it extends out towards the front as additional coverage to dampen any possible metal-on-metal contact with the forward transmission holder.
Curious to hear from PP and FF directly as well, have you contacted them?
04-05-2022, 12:51 PM
