Excellence Magazine Gets Some Sack: 997 More Involving Than 991
05-04-2012, 05:55 PM
#91
Race Director
well, the fact that its a car doesn't really make a difference. My annoyance is with the argument, not the subject matter. We could be talking cars, toasters, or paper origami. plus i just like to argue.
with respect to the content of your post, we will simply never agree and I don't have the time nor inclination to find every one of the above statements, although they are all floating around somewhere on here.
with respect to the content of your post, we will simply never agree and I don't have the time nor inclination to find every one of the above statements, although they are all floating around somewhere on here.
05-04-2012, 07:19 PM
#92
Rennlist Member
Phew, this thread is moving fast...
More time and miles in the 991 are showing me one thing: Spec is everything, now more than ever. And I am not liking PDCC in the 991. Love it in tall, heavy Cayennes, less enthused in the low, "light" 991. But then, I didn't like early PASM, and it got better. Still, difference here is between poor damping in 2005 and something that makes me feel like I am not connected to the car and/or not sensing what the chassis is up to in 2012.
I agree with Evo on one point: 991 represents a step change where the 997 didn't. But so did the 996 and, arguably, so did the 993.
Chalk me as one more who could care less about arguing over whether the latest 911 is a 911. If Porsche wants to label and/or market it as a 911, then that's what it is. And the progression from the 1965 911 is clear, starting in 1966 and making its first big leaps in 1967/68 and 1968/69. 991 is a very good car and, more importantly for PAG, a very good product. Whether it satisfies certain drivers (I count myself among them) in certain guises to come remains a question we'll only be able to answer in time. I can say I was blown away by a 991S manual while a recent car with PDCC and PDK left me cold —*even when it came back weeks after the RS 4.0 left. That 991S against a 997 GTS with the standard suspension? I'd take the GTS. But I'd take the 991S manual without PDCC I drove last year over a 997 Carrera GTS in a heartbeat, even if I would miss the 997's steering a bit. Now very curious to drive a 991S with Sport PASM.
Time moves on. Fortunately, the Porsches of yesteryear are still great cars, no matter what comes out after them...and how much "better"/better/faster they get. I still enjoyed my 1979 911 SC a lot after driving various test cars, just as I did my Boxster and the one I've always kept, a 1973 914.
Cheers,
pete
More time and miles in the 991 are showing me one thing: Spec is everything, now more than ever. And I am not liking PDCC in the 991. Love it in tall, heavy Cayennes, less enthused in the low, "light" 991. But then, I didn't like early PASM, and it got better. Still, difference here is between poor damping in 2005 and something that makes me feel like I am not connected to the car and/or not sensing what the chassis is up to in 2012.
I agree with Evo on one point: 991 represents a step change where the 997 didn't. But so did the 996 and, arguably, so did the 993.
Chalk me as one more who could care less about arguing over whether the latest 911 is a 911. If Porsche wants to label and/or market it as a 911, then that's what it is. And the progression from the 1965 911 is clear, starting in 1966 and making its first big leaps in 1967/68 and 1968/69. 991 is a very good car and, more importantly for PAG, a very good product. Whether it satisfies certain drivers (I count myself among them) in certain guises to come remains a question we'll only be able to answer in time. I can say I was blown away by a 991S manual while a recent car with PDCC and PDK left me cold —*even when it came back weeks after the RS 4.0 left. That 991S against a 997 GTS with the standard suspension? I'd take the GTS. But I'd take the 991S manual without PDCC I drove last year over a 997 Carrera GTS in a heartbeat, even if I would miss the 997's steering a bit. Now very curious to drive a 991S with Sport PASM.
Time moves on. Fortunately, the Porsches of yesteryear are still great cars, no matter what comes out after them...and how much "better"/better/faster they get. I still enjoyed my 1979 911 SC a lot after driving various test cars, just as I did my Boxster and the one I've always kept, a 1973 914.
Cheers,
pete
05-04-2012, 08:11 PM
#93
Advanced
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There will always be some resistance/apprehension when a new model is introduced with new technology. BMW introduced electric steering on their 5 series in '11 and people spent months complaining that this technology detracted from the traditional BMW road feel.
Over time people have gotten used to it and now they praise the tech for providing them with outstanding fuel efficiency.
Over time people have gotten used to it and now they praise the tech for providing them with outstanding fuel efficiency.
05-04-2012, 10:17 PM
#94
At the end of video, mr Gordon said
"I was recently unfortunate to meet one of our hero, Walter Rolf, absolute Porsche legend. I asked him about this new car."
Rolf replied "One of our engineer recently drove carrera S PDK through the Nürburgring Nordschleife, sling off the production line, it achieved the lap of 7 min 40 seconds to put that in context that is exactly the same as the current model 911 GT3".
Rolf said "that's all need to be say about the new 911"
"I was recently unfortunate to meet one of our hero, Walter Rolf, absolute Porsche legend. I asked him about this new car."
Rolf replied "One of our engineer recently drove carrera S PDK through the Nürburgring Nordschleife, sling off the production line, it achieved the lap of 7 min 40 seconds to put that in context that is exactly the same as the current model 911 GT3".
Rolf said "that's all need to be say about the new 911"
05-04-2012, 11:09 PM
#95
Nordschleife Master
No is questioning a bump in overall performance. Would not expect Porsche to introduce a new model that did not raise the bar as they have always done and will continue to do. Not the issue.
As was stated above they clearly are all great cars..it comes down to personal preference, tastes and likes which equates to differences in opinion as to what is better ..whatever that means to you.
As was stated above they clearly are all great cars..it comes down to personal preference, tastes and likes which equates to differences in opinion as to what is better ..whatever that means to you.
05-05-2012, 12:44 AM
#96
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I don't commute on the nurburgring
At the end of video, mr Gordon said
"I was recently unfortunate to meet one of our hero, Walter Rolf, absolute Porsche legend. I asked him about this new car."
Rolf replied "One of our engineer recently drove carrera S PDK through the Nürburgring Nordschleife, sling off the production line, it achieved the lap of 7 min 40 seconds to put that in context that is exactly the same as the current model 911 GT3".
Rolf said "that's all need to be say about the new 911"
"I was recently unfortunate to meet one of our hero, Walter Rolf, absolute Porsche legend. I asked him about this new car."
Rolf replied "One of our engineer recently drove carrera S PDK through the Nürburgring Nordschleife, sling off the production line, it achieved the lap of 7 min 40 seconds to put that in context that is exactly the same as the current model 911 GT3".
Rolf said "that's all need to be say about the new 911"
UJ
Last edited by unclejosh; 05-05-2012 at 11:14 AM.
05-05-2012, 03:47 AM
#97
Nordschleife Master
At the end of video, mr Gordon said
"I was recently unfortunate to meet one of our hero, Walter Rolf, absolute Porsche legend. I asked him about this new car."
Rolf replied "One of our engineer recently drove carrera S PDK through the Nürburgring Nordschleife, sling off the production line, it achieved the lap of 7 min 40 seconds to put that in context that is exactly the same as the current model 911 GT3".
Rolf said "that's all need to be say about the new 911"
"I was recently unfortunate to meet one of our hero, Walter Rolf, absolute Porsche legend. I asked him about this new car."
Rolf replied "One of our engineer recently drove carrera S PDK through the Nürburgring Nordschleife, sling off the production line, it achieved the lap of 7 min 40 seconds to put that in context that is exactly the same as the current model 911 GT3".
Rolf said "that's all need to be say about the new 911"
05-05-2012, 08:31 AM
#98
Rennlist Member
That's all that needs to be said to anyone who takes issue with the advertised performance of the 991. Have any of the critics said it's not fast enough? Me, I must have missed all that criticism but it hardly matters. I don't care if it's faster than anything else ever built on four wheels. I don't like the overall appearance of it and no speed records will change that. Amazing how many critics of the critics are completely tone deaf to this simple concept. Most people won't buy a $120K car they don't like the looks of no matter what the performance.
I won't be hitting the ring anytime soon. The styling is a big yawn for me. The fact that the 911 interior details are no longer exclusive to the model make it even more generic in my mind.
05-05-2012, 10:42 AM
#99
997 interior is not exclusive, they also share many parts with boxster/cayman (even doors) 991 is also shared with 981 (but not doors) so I do not see any big changes in strategy.
The lifted console is actually from Carrera GT since 2004, i do not see people complaining about it. Just my 2 cent
The lifted console is actually from Carrera GT since 2004, i do not see people complaining about it. Just my 2 cent
Last edited by iambon; 06-07-2012 at 11:50 PM.
05-05-2012, 11:37 AM
#100
Rennlist Member
997 interior is not exclusive, they also share many parts with boxster/cayman (even doors) 991 is also shared with 981 (but not doors) so I do not see any big changes in strategy.
The lifted console is actually from Carrera GT since 2004, i do not see people complaining about it. Just my 2 cent
The lifted console is actually from Carrera GT since 2004, i do not see people complaining about it. Just my 2 cent
05-05-2012, 01:12 PM
#101
My decision
I was really torn initially between the 997 and the 991. I like the looks of both. The last Porsche I owned was a brilliant 1985 911 Carrera Coupe (with the highly underrated 915 transmission). I should have never sold that car, but that's another story.
So ... I read the brochures front to back, spent hours on Rennlist, perused the reviews of both cars. Lots of fun. Sometimes I wonder if researching a new car is more fun than actually owning one. It's a little like the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue - I mean, those women are *perfect* aren't they? And not just hot, but freaking smart and funny too. You get my drift.
In any case, for me, the rubber met the road when the rubber actually met the road ... with a series of test drives. 997 GTS 4 PDK SPASM, 997 GTS manual SPASM, 991S PDK no PDCC. Luckily I was able to drive them back to back on a series of extended test drives.
My subjective results:
3. 991S PDK no PDCC. Luxurious, quiet, but still goes when pressed. Makes the right sounds. Looks great in the right colors. If I wanted a daily driver, I'd probably go for it. But ... it didn't feel like a 911. Yep, the steering isn't quite there but that was not a dealbreaker for me and, honestly, I'm not sure what was. Too low? Reduced visibility? Luxurious but non-911-like interior? Felt larger, less intimate? Didn't trigger the nostalgia reflex for my old Carrera, not to mention my high school buddy's dad's 1976 911S Targa that we two punks got to joyride from time to time? I don't know.
2. 997 GTS 4 PDK SPASM. A damn fine car. Great sounds, right size, lovely everything. Didn't really notice the added weight from the all wheel drive, but maybe a tad less sharp than the RWD version. PDK worked like a dream. My only gripe: the PDK paddles need more "click" when you hit them, they worked great but just felt a little soft when actuating the gearchange. If I wanted another auto, would have taken this one.
1. 997 GTS manual SPASM. This is the one I bought. Is the SPASM a little hard, even on the soft setting? Yes. But probably will improve when I replace the PZeros with Pilot Super Sports. Do I want to take this on a 1,000 mile roadtrip? Not entirely, no. Road noise (fixed in the 991) is an issue over long drives. BUT ... it is simply everything I want in a 911 - quick, direct, great sounds, incredible feel.
At the end of the day, an easy decision instead of an agonizing one. I'm pretty sure the 991 will be the perfect car for many buyers, all depends on how you use it I guess. But for me, the 997 GTS is the one.
So ... I read the brochures front to back, spent hours on Rennlist, perused the reviews of both cars. Lots of fun. Sometimes I wonder if researching a new car is more fun than actually owning one. It's a little like the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue - I mean, those women are *perfect* aren't they? And not just hot, but freaking smart and funny too. You get my drift.
In any case, for me, the rubber met the road when the rubber actually met the road ... with a series of test drives. 997 GTS 4 PDK SPASM, 997 GTS manual SPASM, 991S PDK no PDCC. Luckily I was able to drive them back to back on a series of extended test drives.
My subjective results:
3. 991S PDK no PDCC. Luxurious, quiet, but still goes when pressed. Makes the right sounds. Looks great in the right colors. If I wanted a daily driver, I'd probably go for it. But ... it didn't feel like a 911. Yep, the steering isn't quite there but that was not a dealbreaker for me and, honestly, I'm not sure what was. Too low? Reduced visibility? Luxurious but non-911-like interior? Felt larger, less intimate? Didn't trigger the nostalgia reflex for my old Carrera, not to mention my high school buddy's dad's 1976 911S Targa that we two punks got to joyride from time to time? I don't know.
2. 997 GTS 4 PDK SPASM. A damn fine car. Great sounds, right size, lovely everything. Didn't really notice the added weight from the all wheel drive, but maybe a tad less sharp than the RWD version. PDK worked like a dream. My only gripe: the PDK paddles need more "click" when you hit them, they worked great but just felt a little soft when actuating the gearchange. If I wanted another auto, would have taken this one.
1. 997 GTS manual SPASM. This is the one I bought. Is the SPASM a little hard, even on the soft setting? Yes. But probably will improve when I replace the PZeros with Pilot Super Sports. Do I want to take this on a 1,000 mile roadtrip? Not entirely, no. Road noise (fixed in the 991) is an issue over long drives. BUT ... it is simply everything I want in a 911 - quick, direct, great sounds, incredible feel.
At the end of the day, an easy decision instead of an agonizing one. I'm pretty sure the 991 will be the perfect car for many buyers, all depends on how you use it I guess. But for me, the 997 GTS is the one.
05-05-2012, 07:00 PM
#104
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: West Los Angeles & Truckee, CA
Posts: 4,024
Received 867 Likes
on
591 Posts
I was really torn initially between the 997 and the 991. I like the looks of both. The last Porsche I owned was a brilliant 1985 911 Carrera Coupe (with the highly underrated 915 transmission). I should have never sold that car, but that's another story.
So ... I read the brochures front to back, spent hours on Rennlist, perused the reviews of both cars. Lots of fun. Sometimes I wonder if researching a new car is more fun than actually owning one. It's a little like the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue - I mean, those women are *perfect* aren't they? And not just hot, but freaking smart and funny too. You get my drift.
In any case, for me, the rubber met the road when the rubber actually met the road ... with a series of test drives. 997 GTS 4 PDK SPASM, 997 GTS manual SPASM, 991S PDK no PDCC. Luckily I was able to drive them back to back on a series of extended test drives.
My subjective results:
3. 991S PDK no PDCC. Luxurious, quiet, but still goes when pressed. Makes the right sounds. Looks great in the right colors. If I wanted a daily driver, I'd probably go for it. But ... it didn't feel like a 911. Yep, the steering isn't quite there but that was not a dealbreaker for me and, honestly, I'm not sure what was. Too low? Reduced visibility? Luxurious but non-911-like interior? Felt larger, less intimate? Didn't trigger the nostalgia reflex for my old Carrera, not to mention my high school buddy's dad's 1976 911S Targa that we two punks got to joyride from time to time? I don't know.
2. 997 GTS 4 PDK SPASM. A damn fine car. Great sounds, right size, lovely everything. Didn't really notice the added weight from the all wheel drive, but maybe a tad less sharp than the RWD version. PDK worked like a dream. My only gripe: the PDK paddles need more "click" when you hit them, they worked great but just felt a little soft when actuating the gearchange. If I wanted another auto, would have taken this one.
1. 997 GTS manual SPASM. This is the one I bought. Is the SPASM a little hard, even on the soft setting? Yes. But probably will improve when I replace the PZeros with Pilot Super Sports. Do I want to take this on a 1,000 mile roadtrip? Not entirely, no. Road noise (fixed in the 991) is an issue over long drives. BUT ... it is simply everything I want in a 911 - quick, direct, great sounds, incredible feel.
At the end of the day, an easy decision instead of an agonizing one. I'm pretty sure the 991 will be the perfect car for many buyers, all depends on how you use it I guess. But for me, the 997 GTS is the one.
So ... I read the brochures front to back, spent hours on Rennlist, perused the reviews of both cars. Lots of fun. Sometimes I wonder if researching a new car is more fun than actually owning one. It's a little like the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue - I mean, those women are *perfect* aren't they? And not just hot, but freaking smart and funny too. You get my drift.
In any case, for me, the rubber met the road when the rubber actually met the road ... with a series of test drives. 997 GTS 4 PDK SPASM, 997 GTS manual SPASM, 991S PDK no PDCC. Luckily I was able to drive them back to back on a series of extended test drives.
My subjective results:
3. 991S PDK no PDCC. Luxurious, quiet, but still goes when pressed. Makes the right sounds. Looks great in the right colors. If I wanted a daily driver, I'd probably go for it. But ... it didn't feel like a 911. Yep, the steering isn't quite there but that was not a dealbreaker for me and, honestly, I'm not sure what was. Too low? Reduced visibility? Luxurious but non-911-like interior? Felt larger, less intimate? Didn't trigger the nostalgia reflex for my old Carrera, not to mention my high school buddy's dad's 1976 911S Targa that we two punks got to joyride from time to time? I don't know.
2. 997 GTS 4 PDK SPASM. A damn fine car. Great sounds, right size, lovely everything. Didn't really notice the added weight from the all wheel drive, but maybe a tad less sharp than the RWD version. PDK worked like a dream. My only gripe: the PDK paddles need more "click" when you hit them, they worked great but just felt a little soft when actuating the gearchange. If I wanted another auto, would have taken this one.
1. 997 GTS manual SPASM. This is the one I bought. Is the SPASM a little hard, even on the soft setting? Yes. But probably will improve when I replace the PZeros with Pilot Super Sports. Do I want to take this on a 1,000 mile roadtrip? Not entirely, no. Road noise (fixed in the 991) is an issue over long drives. BUT ... it is simply everything I want in a 911 - quick, direct, great sounds, incredible feel.
At the end of the day, an easy decision instead of an agonizing one. I'm pretty sure the 991 will be the perfect car for many buyers, all depends on how you use it I guess. But for me, the 997 GTS is the one.
