Neotorque

I don't see how it is emotional to me. I am just trying to bring in some actual facts, as opposed to anecdotal stories along the lines of "I saw an engine fail, thus all M96 engines will fail." If anyone has objective facts to the contrary, I'm all ears. But it is frustrating as a new Porsche owner to come to a site like this for information, and find that a good deal of posts on an issue like this attract little more than unsupported gossip and fear mongering.

And I think your example proves the point. I'm sure the insurance company has calculated that there's a very small chance of his house receiving severe damage solely because of its proximity to the Gulf. Again, an example of hype leading people to overestimate the risks, while people with the actual data see it as a very low risk proposition.

For the 100th time, I am not saying that IMS failures are a "non-issue" nor that it is impossible for your friend's house to get destroyed by a Gulf-related event. I'm saying they're both very unlikely for any given owner, and that incessantly talking about either them as if they are an inevitability when there is an extremely low chance of them ever happening is both counterproductive and a waste of time.

Palmbeacher

Not likely. Dual-row bearings ceased sometime in MY2001.

Fortunately I was able to buy a 6-yr exclusionary warranty for $4600 on my '05 just as CPO was expiring, so for another 5 yrs at least I'm covered in case of catastrophic failure. So far a couple "minor" failures in the first year have already offset a third of the warranty's cost, and I fully expect it to be at least a wash by the time it expires. I also put in the LN bearing when I did the clutch at 33,000 miles. The OEM bearing was in perfect condition, so unless I got a defective LN bearing, I think it ought to last even longer given its better materials and de-sealed design. I'm putting it out of my mind, otherwise what's the point owning the car if I'm going to have the enjoyment spoilt by continual fretting? By the time the warranty expires the car will be 12 yrs old, and I'll decide whether to keep it and drive it until it dies, then sell it for parts or track conversion.

What I will absolutely not do is sink $20K into putting in a new motor. I'd surely take that $20K and put it forth toward a newer car.


As of last read on LN's website it's up to four failures, and they are being adamant that the retrofit should not be done on a car where the OEM bearing has failed, because debris already present in the engine can get into the LN bearing (since it is unsealed) and cause premature failure. LN's problem in tracing the source of failures of their bearings is lack of pertinent data on variables. Most of the M96 engines (2001 part-2005, vs 1999-2001 part) use the single-row bearing, which in itself could account partly for why more failures have occurred with that configuration. Then there's the issue of what debris was present in cars where the LN bearing failed. Then there's the issue of installation bodges. Finally, they (and I fully concur) believe there are tolerances in the IMS shafts themselves (and parallelism with the attaching bolt/flange) which may cause certain ones to run hotter and deteriorate prematurely.

Marine Blue

Thank you Jim, appreciate the detailed response. I will keep this in mind going forward.

holden997

The information on the IMS/engine number were extracted from the 2005/06 workshop manual. The info is on page 426. I believe you can still get a copy @ 997 6speedonline. As for manufacture date, there is no way to tell, same as for a VIN. You will need to crawl under to check the engine no. The number is printed about 1" above the bottom of the oil pan, on the left of the pan, driver side. It is a dot-matrix print and should start with "M97......". For reference, my engine number is M97/01 68616946 with a manufacture date 03/2006.

Hope this helps,
Holden

utkinpol

aftermarket warranties may be tricky in that area when it comes to really big issues. whom did you buy it from?
did you try to find what actual fine print do they have for engine replacement cases?

dw.metro

Do these above numbers apply if you have the M96 engine? My car is a 2006 C2 with a build date of Sept, 2005.

holden997

I believe the M96 has it own set of number. In your case just have a look at the number printed on your engine. Probably it will start with "M96...."

sandwedge

The poll may have been unscientific but it was still based on a sampling of 400 997 owners. What evidence do you have that the result is wildly inaccurate?

Just the same as earlier. Does it really matter if the percentage is 2% or 6%? Porsche knows they installed a flawed part that in some cases leads to the destruction of the engine at the owner's expense sans warranty. I think Porsche sucks for not taking responsibility and you don't seem to see a problem at all with their behavior. That's all.

alexb76

IMS is absolutely over-blown. Definitely M96 and 2005 and early 2006 models have a higher chance of IMS failure (around 1%), while IMS failure is VERY RARE (less than 1%) in the newer design mid-2006-2008 models.

I was just at a my Porsche indy and he said that IMS failure is SO RARE even on 996, that he absolutely wouldn't worry about it one bit on 997.

I think the bigger problem is, Porsche KNEW their earlier design was flawed, and despite making millions off their loyal customers, they do not warranty their M96 engines, while they SHOULD! Even Honda has a 10yr powertrain warranty on their engines... I can't understand how can Porsche sell $100K+ car and NOT TO STAND behind their engineering for at least 10yrs of major engine failure?! I think not enough people complained or took them to court, so they can just deny coverage and say screw you!

alexb76

I disagree with you first point, while 100% AGREE with your second point!

The official numbers are 1% IMS failure. The poll here is absolutely inaccurate, sample size and manner it's taken cannot be relied upon for anything whatsoever. For instance, IF you had an IMS failure you will be MORE LIKELY to be on Rennlist discussing it, than if you have no issues and were driving around instead of posting here.

Porsche definitely should have taken more responsibility for their engineering. As I said in my post above, even Honda gives you 10yr warranty against engine failure, I cannot believe if someone who bought a brand new 2005 for $100K+, and had it failed in 2010 NOT to be pissed and to go back and buy another Porsche?! Terrible on their part, not standing behind their engineering.

aka_Sven

Sorry if someone has already raised this, but I am puzzled by the following: I have seen the threads re IMS failure for pampered 997s, and I understand the logic behind that (and drive accordingly), but how do we reconcile that with the reported jump in price of aftermarket warranties for cars with more miles? Wouldn't the underwriters have sufficient data to know they should not give low mileage cars a price break?

utkinpol

you are not a mathematician probably, as for probability computation you got to look at randomness of a selection you choose to work with, like a selection of porsche owners represented on 6speed and rennlist like forums is almost perfectly random and can be accepted for a selection slice.
then out of that selection you look at percentage of those owners who had a particular event happened to them. then you approximate it out into original pie.

and to see what actual whole number is you got to multiply, not to divide that number to see how it applies to whole population when you need to do your approximation. so far here on rennlist poll we had, what, 6%? ask on 996 forum what percentage of owners had an IMS retrofit. you`ll get above 50% somewhat. ask then also how many are on a second engine now. then you can re-assess your VERY RARE.

Palmbeacher

Gee, no, the salesman was such a nice, polite chap I figured why bother reading the contract. Do you think I should have? In my defence I wouldn't have understand it anyway, being as I'm such a slow-witted and gullible fool.


This is about the dozenth extended auto warranty I've purchased. The Fidelity warranty the dealer wanted to sell me (for twice the cost of the one I bought) states that breakdowns caused by parts that wear-out are covered only to 50K miles (after that, to be covered, a part must have failed due to a defect of manufacture). My contract has no such clause. I purchased it through Paragon, who I discovered mentioned whilst perusing LN's web page on the IMS solutions. Then I asked my service advisor (aware that his dealership sells Fidelity) as well as the independent who installed my LN bearing, and both said they'd dealt with Paragon warranties and had had no problems. They said that virtually every warranty company insists upon sending an adjuster to the shop to examine claims much in excess of $1000.

As with most warranties, mine specifies that a single claim cannot exceed the current dealer value of the car. So if the car's value drops below $20K (the cost of replacing the engine) I would be liable for paying up to the difference, but they will not deny the claim entirely. And I daresay I predict an '05 C2 has a way to go before it's worth <$20K.

Worst-case scenario and the warranty company were to try denying a claim for an engine grenade, my son owes me one for putting him through law school

utkinpol

so, Paragon, OK. it helps. can you pls PM me web site or agent info?
what do they _specifically_ require for dead engine coverage? will work done at indi echanic be covered or does car have to go to an authorized dealer forpost-mortem inspection?

My CPO expires in Aug 2012 so i am kinda slowly shopping for same thing now, but so far most reviews i had done were, well,not very promising. My mechanic told me bluntly that his experience is close to 90% negative to get anything out of aftermarket insurances in case when whole engine goes kaput.

Neotorque

+1