991 vs 997 in the flesh
02-08-2012, 10:19 AM
#46
Drifting
No need to shed any tears for me. I love my 2012 GTS. Doesn't mean that I don't like the 991. I got a huge discount on the GTS, love the way it was optioned, love the looks and performance. A 991 will probably be in my future some day. I didn't want the first year model, nor did I want to pay full MSRP. I have no regrets.
02-08-2012, 10:58 AM
#47
Instructor
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: MD
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You guys are all too soft...cars? real men don't drive cars...I still walk everywhere I go..I still hunt with sticks when I need meat, start fire by twisting branches....although it deosn't leave me much time to do anything else afterwards.
02-08-2012, 11:42 AM
#48
This is an argument no one wins. To bash either car is silly: to say the 991 kills the 997, as someone already mentioned, is just not the case; similarly, no one can say with a straight face the 991 is not every bit a 911, again as some people have said. I think I’m in the majority when I say that, as owner of a newer 997 MY, there is just no compelling reason to pay full MSRP for a 991 right now. In a couple of years though, when I am do for a trade-in, the 991 4S will be my only choice.
02-08-2012, 11:46 AM
#49
Nordschleife Master
Do any of you remember when the 1978 911SC was introduced? Has anyone read reviews from that time period?
All the comments above could have been made back in 1978 when that "new" 911 was introduced. Everyone thought it was the end of the world since the 911SC was a much more comfort oriented car and was changed to appeal to a much wider audience of bankers, lawyers and accountants. A '78 SC is a massive advancement from a long hood 911 and significantly changed from the '77 911 it replaced.
How desireable is a 911SC now? A minty one is pretty damn desireable. Good luck finding a low mileage garage queen. Those cars were so easy to drive that most of the survivors have a boat load of miles on them.
Do any of you remember when the 964 was introduced back in '88? All of those quotes above could be from 1988. The 964 was 85% new and a major departure from the 1989 3.2 liter Carrera. The 964 was the red headed step child of the 911 world and laughed at by every 3.2 liter owner for being too soft, too full of electronics, too creature comfort oriented, too much of a 911 for the masses. Now, I get unsolicited offers for my garage queen '90 (the worst 911 EVER made) for thousands more than I paid for it. Sight unseen. They'll wire transfer the money and send Intercity to pick it up. Yes, it's value is going up. Who'd a thought that would ever happen to a 964, the worst 911 ever built?
Do any of you remember when the 996 was introduced back in '98? All of those quotes above could be from 1998. The 996 was a complete redesign and probably was the most massive change to the 911 that we'll ever see. Do you remember those years? Do you?
Man, you really gotta get over this evolution of the 911 thing... The 911 can not sit still or not evolve. Getting new buyers into the marque is how a company sustains itself. They can NOT rely on the enthusiast market to keep them alive because we tend to buy a new 911, what, every 5 to 10 years or so. We must have new weathly buyers get into these things and then get hooked on Porsche. If not, Porsche is dead. Good luck getting parts for your beloved 997 then when the company folds up...
I've been around Porsche too long to know that this 991 negativety won't last...the 991 will be come the standard and everything else will just be another aging 911.
My brother has 4 911's. A '66 Wood Dash, a 911T with a transplanted "E" motor and Webers and two '83 (Comfort Edition End of the World) 911's. I've flogged every one of them within an inch of their life. I've had my '90 sideways and the '84 in my garage gets driven nearly as a daily driver. If you think your 997 is "enthusiast oriented", think again... The 997 is a cushy, creature comfort laden 911 as compared to any of those old cars...a good sports car that happens to have a motor in the back. My point is not to bash you or your 997. We have wonderful cars that we enjoy. It's that the 911 has evolved massively over the decades and will always continue to do so. We must embrace the 991 so that Porsche stays alive.
Jay
06 997
90 964
84 3.2
All the comments above could have been made back in 1978 when that "new" 911 was introduced. Everyone thought it was the end of the world since the 911SC was a much more comfort oriented car and was changed to appeal to a much wider audience of bankers, lawyers and accountants. A '78 SC is a massive advancement from a long hood 911 and significantly changed from the '77 911 it replaced.
How desireable is a 911SC now? A minty one is pretty damn desireable. Good luck finding a low mileage garage queen. Those cars were so easy to drive that most of the survivors have a boat load of miles on them.
Do any of you remember when the 964 was introduced back in '88? All of those quotes above could be from 1988. The 964 was 85% new and a major departure from the 1989 3.2 liter Carrera. The 964 was the red headed step child of the 911 world and laughed at by every 3.2 liter owner for being too soft, too full of electronics, too creature comfort oriented, too much of a 911 for the masses. Now, I get unsolicited offers for my garage queen '90 (the worst 911 EVER made) for thousands more than I paid for it. Sight unseen. They'll wire transfer the money and send Intercity to pick it up. Yes, it's value is going up. Who'd a thought that would ever happen to a 964, the worst 911 ever built?
Do any of you remember when the 996 was introduced back in '98? All of those quotes above could be from 1998. The 996 was a complete redesign and probably was the most massive change to the 911 that we'll ever see. Do you remember those years? Do you?
Man, you really gotta get over this evolution of the 911 thing... The 911 can not sit still or not evolve. Getting new buyers into the marque is how a company sustains itself. They can NOT rely on the enthusiast market to keep them alive because we tend to buy a new 911, what, every 5 to 10 years or so. We must have new weathly buyers get into these things and then get hooked on Porsche. If not, Porsche is dead. Good luck getting parts for your beloved 997 then when the company folds up...
I've been around Porsche too long to know that this 991 negativety won't last...the 991 will be come the standard and everything else will just be another aging 911.
My brother has 4 911's. A '66 Wood Dash, a 911T with a transplanted "E" motor and Webers and two '83 (Comfort Edition End of the World) 911's. I've flogged every one of them within an inch of their life. I've had my '90 sideways and the '84 in my garage gets driven nearly as a daily driver. If you think your 997 is "enthusiast oriented", think again... The 997 is a cushy, creature comfort laden 911 as compared to any of those old cars...a good sports car that happens to have a motor in the back. My point is not to bash you or your 997. We have wonderful cars that we enjoy. It's that the 911 has evolved massively over the decades and will always continue to do so. We must embrace the 991 so that Porsche stays alive.
Jay
06 997
90 964
84 3.2
Nice passion until the last sentence. I say BS!!! If someone doesn't like it and wants something else, fine. I see no need to rescue VW
Also, as a guy who's been in and owned many many 911's over the years, I would disagree. They ALL have their charms, they ALL have their thorns. That you perceive "progress" on every iteration is the desired goal of Porsche, but really not so necessary for all. I found flogging a 964 as much fun as flogging a 993 as much fun as flogging...
It's about taking a car to the limit, not about pure velocity. It's about standing it up on it's edge, wherever that edge is. DD-characteristics are secondary. You take what you get in that dept. by my calculations.
For me, although I owned several 997's it was about the last straw. The car's limits with the nannies is so high that it really is only practical at the track. I don't want or need "smoother" or "faster". I want excitment.
Thinking of a long-hood or a tribute car as my next one. Hell, they are deep into > $100K now. For that money there are many choices...
YMMV
02-08-2012, 12:15 PM
#50
Hardly delusional. Porsche is in the best position to create a car that is more niche and less GT oriented as the 911 has become-they have many other models to survive on, are bigger and have more flex than ever before. Even more so if they become integrated with VW.
The idea that they need bloat the size and feel of the Carrera to stay relevant is a total misnomer. There is no question also that with more power comes more driver assists, further disconnecting the car. Porsche isn't about to slide over the keys to a 400HP pendulus car to someone who can't drive without a lot of on-board babysitting.
The niche Steve McQueen car is what set them apart from BMW/Merc/Jag/Aston/Lexus in the first place.
reposted for effect
02-08-2012, 12:57 PM
#51
Nordschleife Master
02-08-2012, 03:03 PM
#53
Rennlist Member
Not exactly twice the size...
993
Wheelbase 2272 mm 89.4 in
Front track 1405 mm 55.3 in
Rear track 1444 mm 56.9 in
Length 4245 mm 167.1 in
Width 1735 mm 68.3 in
Height 1300 mm 51.2 in
length:wheelbase ratio 1.87
Weight 1445 kg 3186 lb
991
Wheelbase 2450 mm 96.5 in
Front track 1532 mm 60.3 in
Rear track 1518 mm 59.8 in
Length 4491 mm 176.8 in
Width 1808 mm 71.2 in
Height 1303 mm 51.3 in
length:wheelbase ratio 1.83
Weight 1455 kg 3208 lb
Data is from carfolio.com
993
Wheelbase 2272 mm 89.4 in
Front track 1405 mm 55.3 in
Rear track 1444 mm 56.9 in
Length 4245 mm 167.1 in
Width 1735 mm 68.3 in
Height 1300 mm 51.2 in
length:wheelbase ratio 1.87
Weight 1445 kg 3186 lb
991
Wheelbase 2450 mm 96.5 in
Front track 1532 mm 60.3 in
Rear track 1518 mm 59.8 in
Length 4491 mm 176.8 in
Width 1808 mm 71.2 in
Height 1303 mm 51.3 in
length:wheelbase ratio 1.83
Weight 1455 kg 3208 lb
Data is from carfolio.com
02-08-2012, 03:08 PM
#54
Rennlist Member
I don't. But I hope the GTS buyers like the 991 as much as you do since my next 911 will be a 2012 GTS. With an extended warranty that will carry me to the cleaned up 992. To me the 991 is the modern version of the 996.....at least in the styling department. A "step forward" followed by a lot of oops and then a much better successor based on more steps forward and a few subtle steps backwards without compromising progress. Like the OP, I saw the 991 in a showroom next to a GTS and there's no disputing the curvy supermodel versus fat grandma analogy. Grandma on stilts no less...
02-08-2012, 03:13 PM
#55
longer than a corvette.
Wide up front in a way we've not seen before.
front end looks too short.
The interior? no comment necessary. awful.
911 without an ebrake?
20-21" SUV sized wheels are getting rather ridiculous looking.
the signature hips are getting more muddled/diluted very year.
it's a cumulative reshaping of the car into a Jaguar or Aston Martin "James Bond luxury car" for middle-aged foreign billionaires and reality show housewives.... the furthest thing from Steve McQueen you could think of.
but again, on engineering that side of the of the factory nail it every time. Grandpa ride with Rohrl time sheets.
the point of no return
Wide up front in a way we've not seen before.
front end looks too short.
The interior? no comment necessary. awful.
911 without an ebrake?
20-21" SUV sized wheels are getting rather ridiculous looking.
the signature hips are getting more muddled/diluted very year.
it's a cumulative reshaping of the car into a Jaguar or Aston Martin "James Bond luxury car" for middle-aged foreign billionaires and reality show housewives.... the furthest thing from Steve McQueen you could think of.
but again, on engineering that side of the of the factory nail it every time. Grandpa ride with Rohrl time sheets.
the point of no return
02-08-2012, 03:26 PM
#56
Nordschleife Master
02-08-2012, 03:29 PM
#57
Rennlist Member
Some years ago the company almost went belly up trying to do just what you're suggesting. We can argue this forever. But if you think there is a business model that would allow Porsche to build only sports cars for purists in today's marketplace, be profitable, meet the expectations of shareholders, continue to support a wide ranging racing program, and do the R&D that is required to survive in today's regulatory environment, that, with all due respect, is delusional. There's no path for Porsche to do such a thing on their own, and if they become a full partner of the VW group, it won't be allowed. We should stop complaining about the inevitable and appreciate that there are still people at Porsche interested in building cars with the capabilities of the 991, 918, GT3, and what is yet to come.
Edit: BTW, Jay nailed it in post #36. +1
Edit: BTW, Jay nailed it in post #36. +1
The reason they almost went belly up, was NOT the kind of cars they were making, BUT, how inefficient their manufacturing process was. That's why they actually hired Toyota to learn the Japanese way and to fix their assembly line and supply chain. How do I know that? I work for one of the biggest Porsche partners, and as part of our partnership we had to work with Porsche consultants out of the coroporate office and this is exactly part of their presentation when they advise others on how they transformed Porsche by adopting "Lean Management" to make them a much more efficient car manufacturer, how much they reduced the #of issues across the line, and how much QA had to be cut as QA was done all across the line.
There is absolutely NO REASON to make 911 more GT, NO REASON! It's not like they didn't sell enough 997s? Not that there wasn't enough buyers out there to make a drastic change? The fact that 911 is more GT basically changed the demographic and segementation of the buyer, and in essence the car. That's the bottom line. I strongly believe there was a plan for a Panamera coupe, but at the corporate level they decided to scrap it, and make the Carrera fill that gap, by kind of becoming the jack of all trades, add more room, a bit luxury here and there, more comfort, Panamera interior, electronics to control EVERYTHING (eg. handbrake), more marketing around "Porsche is for everyday/GT", and basically neglecting the enthusiasts, or just leaving the GT3 for that segment of the market!
02-08-2012, 03:44 PM
#58
The Service manager from White -Allen ( super nice guy BTW) in Dayton sent me back some pictures from California. He is out driving the 991. Think he is at the Pelican resort. Mentioned that each color represents a different metal.
still working on my uploads.
still working on my uploads.
