sandwedge

Truth be told. Probably just a matter of time before the 911 will be all electric and its performance compared to Teslas. I just hope parts will be available to those who choose to hang on to their old gas burning cars. I recognize that battery driven cars have their place but I have to admit I shiver at the thought of an all battery driven 911.That's a steep hill for me to climb from where we are now.

Bruce In Philly

Yea, but you can be optimistic given Porsche sure knows how to make a fun car. They will figure something out. All electric cars are not the same and interchangeable. They will figure it out. But, given they have really moved the brand, and the 911 in particular, up market into stratospheric prices that it may not really matter. The people who pay stupid numbers for these cars are... well less just say... the percentage of posers over enthusiasts are way tilted to the poser market and therefore the car will be more oriented to them.

Peace
Bruce in Philly (now Atlanta)

63mercedes

I wouldn't say they ruined it, but its not for a majority of the customers that have been loyal to the carrera. I think it's one of those scenarios like richard hammond said when he was testing the 918. The electrics aren't here to kill todays super car, they're here to save tomorrows. With all the regulations regarding fuel and emissions you have to play with in the rules. I think a hybrid 911 with an electric turbo is more congruent with the brand than aston martin making a smart car just to be under a mandated mpg average. This new press car might keep the gt3 and rs at a certain performance level they other wise couldn't.

As there becomes third party battery manufactures like spark plugs and tires it'll get cheaper but I'll keep what I got, enjoy it and avoid the problem all together.

Were all real lucky to own a piece of the sweet spot in porsche history and grass isn't always greener on the other side.

hexagone

Clickbait article title clickbaiting effectively, it seems.

Anyone who hasn't driven each incremental generation after the 997 shouldn't be talking about "ruining" anything. Each car is supposed to be an evolution of the prior one, and everyone shaking their fist at the sky wanting something to feel like "the old one" hasn't spent a day in their life in product development where evolving regulations (laws) dictate styling of subsequent cars and consumers needs/wants (marketing) shift every day as we move to a technology-forward society where cell phones are ubiquitous. You can't fight this one, no matter how many years your rennlist account is aging out.

It seems that folks forget that people are buying 992s with their eyes closed as the brand reaches a zenith of popularity and it may as well be the next Hermés bag on the road. That's not inherently a bad thing - it means Porsche gets pumped full of money to keep building cars that you in this particular forum probably hate (electric, taycan, etc.), but are objectively good cars. Keep arguing for how it's ruining anything, but bills have to be paid and therefore we get amazing cars like the 992 ST which (those who have driven them) talk about being one if not the best Porsches of all time. I can't speak, because I haven't driven one.

As someone who dearly loves his 997 and has owned almost every general version of a 911 since the late 70s - I don't care for much of the really old stuff no matter how much my friends tell me how good my 86' was with all the bolt on fixings. Similarly, my brother's 993 oozes cool - but the first 3 months of his ownership resulted in a $30k engine out rebuild because "air cooled". Finally - I just drove a friend's 992 GTS ($200k sticker), and it was incredible. The car makes you feel super human, every inch of the interior was covered in leather and it was still a manual car. But it wasn't for me because I'm not in the market for a car that's a condo mortgage in some cities

Where I'll conclude my rant as this thread grows into a bunch of bickering and how the 997 was "perfect" - is that each generation forward or past was probably perfect for someone, somewhere. But ruined - is the most stupid thing anyone can say about a car company that probably makes the most compelling day to day all around sportscars... of all time. So drop those pearls and talk about the merits of how good newer cars are in their own way because you've experienced them, or otherwise get off your key board warrior la-z-boys because you've got nothing better to do than complain on the internet.

TL;DR: Porsche hasn't lost its way - you're just a curmudgeon.

Deven

To expand on what hexagone has said, I think the bigger issue is Porsche marketing. They have expanded the vehicle lineup significantly since the turn of the century (started with the Boxter, then Panamera, Cayanne, Macan, Taycan) and then significantly added many trim levels. They basically diluted the 'Turbo' designation as well.

Speaking from my own experience, I entered the Porsche family back in 1998 with a Boxster. Other than reading the annual R&T and C&D lovefest with the 911 for years, my exposure to Porsche was limited. Even when I ordered my Boxster 'everyone' I knew, family friends etc thought I was crazy, and non stop said it was a mistake (Porsche and reliability was essentially an oxymoron). However it was the best decision I ever made. Loved that car, and had me yearning for more.

When the 997 was announced, and with the improved reputation/reliability of Porsche with the 996 and 987, I knew I wanted one. Made sense as the natural progression was from Boxster --> 911. At the time, the Turbo seemed exotic, top of the food chain car, and I figured my last Porsche in the future would be the Turbo (and I would splurge, PTS, European delivery etc). However, with the 'bastardization' of Porsche by VW, and making Porsche a mainstream vehicle and no longer a 'boutique' brand, that charm that made Porsche 'special' has dissipated. Removal of the 6 Speed, every 911 was a 'turbo', and 'you will drive the car as we want because you don't know better attitude' (PDK, traction control, more creature comforts) really made me lose interest in the newer cars. The 2015 GT3 was interesting. Same issue though, Porsche built a car and was dictating how you should drive it.

I think something clicked with Porsche, as they took back control from VW. They then 'listened' to their enthusiasts, and decided to make the 2018 GT3. 4.0, M/T, and order it the way you want. I was sold. Not since 2005 was I excited about a new Porsche. Of course not being a VIP I could not get one (I wanted PTS, euro delivery) and refused to play the ADM game. So I waited, not too long, and like it has always been, 2018 GT3's started flooding the market by the end of 2019. I got what I wanted by the middle of 2020.

I mention this because IMO, the 2018 GT3 IS the natural evolution of the 997. The car is more compliant, handles better, has a 6 speed, has all the saftey features (traction control etc), and all the convience (blu tooth, rear camera, Bose) and I think retains the essense of what made the 997 special. Sure it has a big wing, but with great certainty that is why eveyone else is in love with the touring version. Add sound dampening, and you have the 'perfect' 997 upgrade.

I feel the same about the Turbo. Compaire the 2008 or so Turbo to a 991-992 GTS. Other than no 6 speed, the PDK is far better than the Tiptronic, and literally everything about the GTS is better than the 997 Turbo. As such, to me that is the real evolution is 997 Turbo --> GTS.

Problem is they keep fragmenting their models. T, plain, S, GTS, Targa, then Turbo, Turbo S, GT3, GT3 touring, GT3 RS, S/C, S/T.

Also, it seems modern day enthusiasts jump straight to the top of the food chain (so many people's 1st Porsche is a Turbo S, or GT3). Porsche has delivered what they want. A daily driver supercar. For anyone that has never owned a 911 before, the 992 version is indeed far superior to anything in the past. I would be lying if I said I would buy a 15-18 year old 997 because I thought it was better than the 991/992.

Liste-Renn

@Deven , An astute analysis of the situation. I agree with almost every point you made.
The rub that chafes my hide is the commoditization of the 911 line, also the "Special" "Limited" (like 2000 units is limited, lol!) models that add appeal to just the blokes that buy them for the caché or status rather than the admittedly awesome driver experience. I store and drive my 997 in SoCal- the SF Valley, Malibu Hills and PCH. The ratio of poseurs to drivers is not favorable- not just for Porsches, but other track oriented Mclarens, Lambos, Ferraris, AMG Benzs and true M-Series Beemers. Great eye candy, but I've seen owners egress with a supermodel and no clue how to navigate a steep restaurant approach or exit, or even how to park it with any precision (based on the curbed wheels).

What i miss, and it is not the fault of evolving technology, is the kinship of "belonging" to a club that required more than a big bank account to join. Like an appreciation for trailing throttle oversteer or how to match revs on a downshift, or how to stop on a steep hill and use the handbrake to pull away cleanly using throttle and clutch with your own two feet. I recall the "olden" days when flashing a high beam in daylight to a passing 911 day, or a quick raise of fingers on the wheel wave was pretty common all over the country. When we made fun of the 1967 Sportomatic, the 1988 Tiptronic and then the 2008 PDK (until it was demonstrated to be faster shifting and better rev matching than Ayrton Senna (on his best day) on a track).

I love the 997.2 version of the 911- just bought my second one last week- and keeping the first one. The later models that interest me do not pass the value/performance/vibe/engagement calculus for me. That said, I would give my left ******** to own a 911R, 991.2 Speedster, 991.2 GT3 Touring. With somebody else's money, a 992 GT3 Touring, 992 GT3 RS or a 992 S/T would scratch an itch I do not have now but could develop one in a NY minute.

A 997 GT3 RS 4.0 or a Sports Classic would be preferrable, to me, than any of the 991/2 versions- except perhaps the 911R.

The fact I can list all those post 997.2 cars is testament to the fact that Porsche sis still making compelling 911's.
You can have all the new Sport Classic, Dakar and other 2000- car limited hyper ADM cars.

TL,DR: The IFYYK club has a sh*t ton of new members who don't know and really don't care to know.

ManoTexas

Porsche is a business. They make cool cars to sell. Discounting current and future designs is fruitless. I love my 997 but there are still more current models that intrigue me and would love adding to the garage. Change is inevitable and to disparage others for embracing and enjoying those changes seems elitist. IMO.

63mercedes

How do porsche guys change a light bulb? They don't they just sit in the dark and talk about how good the old one was ha ha ha.

Liste-Renn

How MANY Porsche dudes does it take to change a light bulb?
10,000.
One to change it, and 9999 to tell you just how awesome the old bulb was.

Liste-Renn

By all means, do pray tell why this discussion is fruitless.
Aren't we all here to exchange information, expertise, knowledge and (gasp) offer opinions?
If not interested in the topic, move along.
Change may be inevitable, but one can have a valid opinion concerning that change- like what caused it and why it may not appear to honor the spirit and ethos of what contributed the last 75+ years as a sports car company.

Yeah, a business' core aim is to make money. And Porsche made, and lost, lots of it.
But many marques and models have come and gone...while the the 911 has endured for 61 years.

Why do you suppose that is? Caused they are "cool"?
Nope.
I would opine it's a well-engineered sports car with the engine behind the rear axle (not so much today), stellar brakes and a well sorted chassis and suspension.
The basic design has been constantly refined and each iteration has offered more power, more speed, better performance and an incredible longevity and resale value history.

Today, the 911 comes in 31 flavors and not all of them are universally loved/liked.
I, for one, like to critique them.
And praise the ones that stay true to the original philosophy:
Engineering, not marketing. Loyalty, not advertising.
A unique niche amongst generic/brands of people marketing cars to the masses.
Hardly a fruitless endeavor, IMO.

ManoTexas

I agree with what you say, but you missed my point. Critiquing cars is valid. What I don’t believe valid is criticisms of those who buy newer/newest models.

J.Correa

I stopped at 997.2 4S. Last I could consider would be a 991.1 S or 4S. But I own also a 981 S and the electric steering ruins a lot of feeling 😥

Inigo Montoya

No. Hybrid better than all electric. With all the rules and regulations, they actually did a good job to still make it compelling to car nuts. Yes it's heavy and complicated but still compelling. Also let's face it most Porsche 911 people nowadays are just into speed and luxury and this thing is both. The real hard core lighter weight Porsche enthusiasts are buying Caymans and Boxsters now.