BamaPCar

So, I noticed a tick at idle that is most prominent when the engine is warm. No smoke at startup or outrageous oil consumption, so I'm holding onto hope that it's something else. However, I've had a pit in my stomach for 3 weeks straight now. Dropping the sump plate this weekend once parts arrive to see for myself.

Being your typical accountant, I can't help but contemplate/agonize over the least costly path to take if it's bore scoring. Planning to buy a house soon, so the idea of using up even more cash on a rebuild is not appealing (but still technically possible if it's the better route).

I haven't really seen discussion around the market value of affected cars! So, thought it would be interesting (& helpful) to discuss the financial outcome of the paths one can take when faced with bore scoring.

Car is a 2006 911 C2S with 80k miles. Black ext/Black int that is fairly well optioned....Full Leather, Sport Exhaust, PCM & Bose, Sport Chrono, Bi-xenons, PASM with upgraded Bilstein B6s, etc.

• Scenario #1 - Value if early stage bore scoring (if marketed to the masses with issue disclosed)
• Scenario #2 - Value if rebuilt with LN Nickies + pistons, upgraded IMS, etc from an experienced indy (more focused marketing on enthusiast sites)
• Scenario #3 - Value with a Flat 6 Innovations stocker rebuild (again, more focused marketing on enthusiast sites)

So, if I lose only $8K selling with issue disclosed vs losing $20K on a F6I rebuild ($5K value gain less $25K rebuild).....selling as-is makes more sense. Love the car, but if keeping it would cost an additional $12K when there are plenty of other good car options out there, it isn't really worth it.

Bomba

While not the most ethical, you could just sell it to a dealer as-is. They likely won't do a bore scope and will likely just go to the book value and offer you a few thousand dollars less.... And I'm not even sure there is an ethical issue because you don't "know" that it has bore scoring until you scope it.

Buyers do bore scope inspections, but I doubt most dealers will..... Especially if you're trading it in on something from their inventory, they'll likely just plug in an OBD2 reader, pop the hood and do a walk around of the car, if that....

4Driver4

This is a potential opportunity as well as a financial kick in the pants.
You could dump the car on a dealer...assuming you can sleep at night afterwards.
You can sell as is, get your house set up, and buy in later.
You can build a good solid driver and replace all the "usual suspects"
You can build a monster and rent a condo (with a garage)
You can limp along and decide later.

I'd probably pick the last option.

CarreraAlex

I would note an F6I rebuild is north of $40k right now for their stage II engines with a tier I core (which you don't have if you have scoring).

BamaPCar

I was referring more to a "stocker" rebuild than a Stage II. LN Engineering seems to allude to those being $20K....unless their website is outdated.

Probably not the route I'd go, but I know there are multiple schools of thought on this one on Rennlist!

Very true! Unless somehow selling disclosed in "early" stages makes the car more marketable than in more advanced stages. Certainly wouldn't be so among Rennlisters I'd imagine though.

So, no one wants to take a crack at guessing the values in the 3 scenarios?

CarreraAlex

I could be mistaken but I don't think that's offered anymore on the M97 3.8 or 3.6 engines. I was under the assumption for a long while there will only be stage IIs built from the calls i've been a part of with F6I and LN but i may have misunderstood.

BamaPCar

Oh, got it! I saw Jake one time say that Stage II's made up the vast majority of his work, so it wouldn't surprise me either if he doesn't do stockers anymore.

How about I take 1st stab at my car's value in each scenario (I could be wildly off, but why not!)

( +$0 value gain, $0 total investment gain): baseline value without issues or rebuild.
( -$8K value loss, -$8K total investment loss): scenario with light scoring with some driveability left - disclosed but also marketed to the masses.
( +$4K value gain, -$15K total investment loss): scenario with Nickies + pistons rebuilt by reputable indy.....assuming $19K rebuild cost

bgoetz

If you are thinking value and ROI I don’t think the rebuild is the route for you. You really need to go into it because you love the car and the $$ is extra $ that you don’t mind spending. That said if you can shift your mindset there then it is a great spot to be in 😁.

If I were you I would probably sell it and use the $ to help with the house purchase, buy another down the road.

If you were going to scope it, I would just start by going through #6 spark plug first and if you see scoring stop there. It might save you some effort of going in from the sump. It is a giant PITA IMO.

ftc3

There is a big unknown but given history of these motors, it could be likely. Like bgoetz suggested, I would scope the top of #6 first through the spark plug, if you find scoring, you have your answer. If clean, I would check below from the sump to verify from that end.

If you find scoring, and since you said house, I wouldn’t keep it. There is no ROI that I can see in doing a motor overhaul. Even if you got the motor for 20k, you still need labor on top. And don’t forget about all the odds and ends that tend to pop up on these types of projects that need replacing that you were not expecting.

If home ownership is in your immediate future, get settled in, then shop around for another down the road.

BRS-LN

One comparative:
3 months ago a 997.1 C4S Targa with just north of 100K miles and a fresh FSI R40@ 4.1L sold for 90K on the private market. It was never listed for sale, and there were no negotiations. The new FSI program is only supporting Stage II and some limited R- Series engines. When parts are so hard to get it is imperative that they are utilized to build the engines that are most in demand, have the longest history of success, and make the most power per liter. At this point building a Stocker or Stage I really would just waste components. 90% of what FSI has built since 2008 has been their Stage II engine. It is what everyone wants.
​​​​​​​When I see tickets come through from guys wanting a Stocker, it is only because they have a perception that it costs less. They want FSI quality, but at a lesser price, which won't happen.

8KaboveMSL

I’ve been on several calls explaining the F6I/LNE engine program and I can state the having bore scoring as the only issue makes your engine a tier I core. My engine, 56k miles, bore scoring on Cylinder 3 is classified as a tier 1 core.

My understanding is that what makes the engine a tier 2 core are high miles or other damage beyond simple (but expensive to fix) bore scoring.

F6I released a video explaining the program:
.

It’s long so feel free to use the FF to get tot he part where the replacement cores are discussed. 1:29:55 Jake discusses what engines they’ll accept into the program.

edit: adding link to LNE explanation of engine core tiers:
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-forum/1337281-how-bad-is-this-bore-scoring-and-what-to-do-4.html#post18657199

Petza914

I think an FSI / LN built 4.0L or larger engine in a car makes it worth at least $10k more than the same car with original engine.

Known scoring in an engine even if not symptomatic makes that car with $10k-$15k less and if symptomatic (loud knock, high oil consumption, CELs) it's essentially a roller even if it runs and a roller is worth $15-$20k depending on model, color, condition, and options.

Based on those #s you can run your coat/value scenarios.

First thing I'd do is a UOA on the oil and see if the metal wear is high, especially aluminum and cut open the filter and see whats in it. That will be one indicator of how far progressed bore scoring is if you have it.

If you're running crappy Mobil 0w40, that ticking at hot idle could just be lifter noise from the oil being like water at that temp. Put in Driven DI40 or DT40 or if hot where you live FR50 and see if the Boise is still there. You might not actually have a problem.

stunistu

I am looking to purchase a 2006 to 2008 C2S or C4S coupe with manual transmission with known engine issues as soon as the snow gets out of Maine.
I have just finished building a 4.0 which is now installed in a 2006 that I had shipped from Denver.. I have now done 4 engines. I'm retired and this is my hobby.
I have been to Jakes engine rebuild class and I have his 5 volume CD kit (excellent in my opinion).
You can email me directly at stuhpps@hotmail.com.

BamaPCar

Insightful way to put that! I do love the car, and it's my favorite non-GT water-cooled 911. However, my REAL soft spot is for air cooled cars, but their prices are now out of reach. I had a 993 3 years ago (back when they were still within reach) for only 1 month before it was sideswiped by a construction truck. Collision shop owner (who is a Porsche guy) made me a deal I couldn't refuse and I sold it to him to save face. I regret that to this day.

Interesting! That build probably cost about $70K though, correct? Even if so, looks like he still got most of his investment back.

Good to know. Yeah, engine has no other known problems and runs beautifully other than the tick and very faint occasional "stutter/stumble" when idling warm. Thought it had potential timing chain issues when I first bought it, but found that was due a bad exhaust valve and have had no other concerns until now.

Thanks for your thoughts on value changes! Yes, I have already ordered a SPEEDiagnostix kit that is on the way. Currently running Liquid Moly 5W40 and was planning to switch to Motul 8100 X-Cess 5W40, but you think Driven DT40 definitely is worth the price premium over Motul? I live in Georgia too if that helps.

Charles Navarro

I would expect very little difference between the LM 2040 and Motul 8100 X-Cess. Both are A40 oils and must be formulated using the approved A40 recipe. The only variable is the viscosity and where in the acceptable range it lands. We all know M1 is formulated to the bottom of the viscosity range for optimal fuel economy.

DT40 doesn't have to conform to the A40 spec. The biggest difference would be the moly content in the DT40 as the A40 spec does not have much at all. DT40 also has a tad more ZDDP, but the moly is what matters for engines with Lokasil or Alusil bores. The only oil better than DT40 is DI40.