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IBM, huh? I'm young enough to think that Microsoft invented FUD. TIL!
Who really knows... but FUD was classic IBM back in the day.... early 80s for me. They had all kinds of sales approaches... one was to inform a client "no one was ever fired for buying IBM".... falls under FUD.
Peace
Bruce in Philly (now Atlanta)
Last edited by Bruce In Philly; 01-14-2023 at 03:13 PM.
No pressure from me and no rush. I fully understand the value of dotting the "i"s and crossing the "t"s. These things take time. And the progress you've made so quickly is truly impressive.
My post was meant as an encouragement to get beyond your resistance regarding getting a bit of a payday for all of your efforts!!! I don't believe anyone here would begrudge such. And it's was also intended as a reminder that there are a lot of us in awe of what you're doing. Thanks again!!!
Good news as after some housing updates and shopping around we are now getting much more affordable machined aluminum housing quotes. Latest numbers are $58 each in quantity 20, $43 each in quantity 50. These are the types of numbers we needed to make this work so it looks like a go. We are still shopping to see if there's any more fat to be trimmed but things are looking good.
I've also updated the PWB to move the one Hall Effect senor to the other side of the cavity (mimicking the factory sensor's 180 degree flip on channel 3) as this should provide more uniform performance across the four sensors. This may not be needed but it provides extra margin in the design and was easy to implement. I left that large open area in the middle to make it easier to pot in the housing and allow the potting to fully surround the PWB into a monolithic block once hardened. The new PWB will be here in about a week.
Estimated material costs in the quantity twenty range are around $120 each, in the quantity fifty range about $80 each.
Very impressive. Beats the hell out of a full $20,000 PDK replacement due to the failure of this part. Only question I have is who will be willing and able to install it? Pretty sure no Porsche dealership will get near it since they're not even allowed to replace a failed sensor with a new factory sensor. Guess it will depend on where you are located and the caliber and competence of the indys in your area.
... Only question I have is who will be willing and able to install it? Pretty sure no Porsche dealership will get near it since they're not even allowed to replace a failed sensor with a new factory sensor. Guess it will depend on where you are located and the caliber and competence of the indys in your area.
In addition to the above comment and since it's my understanding that this part is within the transmission, the indy will have to have a PIWIS (or its equivalent) to do at least a transmission fluid change and calibration.
In addition to the above comment and since it's my understanding that this part is within the transmission, the indy will have to have a PIWIS (or its equivalent) to do at least a transmission fluid change and calibration.
Yes, this is concern though some professional non-PIWIS scanners supposedly now have the PDK calibration function from what I've read. I've got a PIWIS2 clone ($400) and it works fine for this but you are right that they aren't that common.
We've been wondering if it's possible to get the replacement sensor so dialed in it doesn't require a PDK cal after replacement. Seems far-fetched as the existing aftermarket suppliers (as far as I know) all require calibration but what exactly cal does is still not very clear (and Porsche isn't talking). We think it drives the shift forks to a known position (i.e. mechanical stops) and then the TCU corrects the distance sensor readings to agree with the location of those known positions. If our distance sensor was "close enough" right off the bat it might not need this step.
To be honest, there's a lot we don't understand about how the TCU uses the distance sensor info (and I doubt few people outside of ZF do understand it). What we do know is how the factory sensor behaves and how to reliably replicate its signal. The three aftermarket suppliers appear to use different geometry and sensing methods (based on open source info) that make we wonder how well they understand it themselves.
In addition to the above comment and since it's my understanding that this part is within the transmission, the indy will have to have a PIWIS (or its equivalent) to do at least a transmission fluid change and calibration.
My understanding too. Which is the reason the failure of any internal part, the distance sensor being the most common internal part to fail based on all information available requires full replacement of the entire PDK. Unless something has changed recently, Porsche after introducing the PDK 14 years ago still doesn't allow their dealerships to open the PDK and replace any internal parts.
The Porsche service advisor I deal with keeps telling me they're allowed to do electronic diagnosis which in some cases allows them to clear PDK fault alerts on the dash and manage other external issues on it but anything internal is off limits.
Most service advisors I have dealt with know jack **** about the cars regardless of brand. They know what comes across on a regular basis and do not have the capability of thinking or having common sense. They work under commission and what the service manager/ owner or manufacturer tells them. With the move to so much electronics and control modules running everything on the cars when something is out of parameters the result seems to be complete shut down of the system. The simple albeit dirty sometimes oil change service at the Landrover dealer now warrants an alignment and cabin filter bringing this gold or platinum or essential level 1 service to the reasonable charge of only 912.00 plus tax and disposal fees. Level 2 service is only $1342.00 plus tax and fees. Sign me up
It's a racket alright. In my experience, there are two types of Porsche owners:
.
Those who appreciate the superb engineering and performance of a highly refined machine (majority of commenters here)
Image-obsessed, status-chasing dolts with more money than common sense who want to be associated with the brand (majority of Porsche owners)
It’s the latter group who cause the problems as their frivolous spending habits set pricing for the rest of us. It’s they who make Porsche dealers, aftermarket suppliers, and repair shops think they are entitled to the Porsche Tax.
Spotting the lies is not hard but here's a primer for the gullible; $600 oil changes are absurd, some poorly trained tech mindlessly following a flow diagram @ $250/hour does not "know your car best", a PDK can actually be repaired, the more stuff the service service advisor sells you the more money he makes, and $2000 aftermarket parts using $100 of material is a ridiculous rip-off.
In their defense, we're talking Canadian monopoly money. What's a brake service when they're already quoting a 'brake fluid exchange'. Seems like they want $430 Canadian for a brake flush?
I think that even if you got the calibrations so dialed in, no relearn would be needed, you still need a compatible tool to run the refill procedure. There are hacks around it, but it’s trial and error, and not recommended.
Aftermarket tools that I have personally dealt with which run the calibration are:
Autologic (blue or gray box)
Launch (full suite tools)
Topdon (an offspring of Launch)
Autel MaxiSystem and upwards. Autel works, but it has to be the higher tier tools. The MaxiSys and the Elite. It also needs to have an active subscription because for some reason, Autel requires a security pin login (similar to VW), and the only way around that is log in online to the Autel database.
I think that even if you got the calibrations so dialed in, no relearn would be needed, you still need a compatible tool to run the refill procedure. There are hacks around it, but it’s trial and error, and not recommended.
Aftermarket tools that I have personally dealt with which run the calibration are:
Autologic (blue or gray box)
Launch (full suite tools)
Topdon (an offspring of Launch)
Autel MaxiSystem and upwards. Autel works, but it has to be the higher tier tools. The MaxiSys and the Elite. It also needs to have an active subscription because for some reason, Autel requires a security pin login (similar to VW), and the only way around that is log in online to the Autel database.
Thank you for this @LynxStarAuto , great info! This is what I love about this community and really appreciate everyone's feedback.
Curious why you don't recommend the hack for the fluid fill as I've done it myself and checked the results with my PIWIS. No difference. Have you run into problems?
Thinking out loud, on Caymans/Boxsters we know that the case can be pulled with the transmission in the car (in fact this seems like the preferred method as documented by @jjrichar ). We should be able to avoid draining the clutch fluid thus no refill procedure is required. A little fluid might be lost dealing with the cooling circuit, but that can be measured and added back into the PDK. Do we need the refill procedure for air purge? I don't know but I suspect the regular pump flow would do it without special procedures.
Of course gear oil must be drained but that refill procedure is simple.
Not trying to cut important corners here, but eliminate non value-added work that makes this excessively expensive or impractical for DIY or small garages. Over in the PDK repair thread we had one guy say he was quoted 28 hours labor for a distance sensor replacement. If it's taking 28 hours you are doing it wrong.
Curious also if the case can be pulled on a 911 with the PDK in the car. As far as I know no one has documented this and it would definitely be trickier than the Cayman/Boxster (particularly in AWD cars) but is may be doable. Any thoughts on this are welcome. I'm going to slide under my car this weekend and take a look at this (no lift unfortunately).
Regarding status, the prototype sensor is stuck somewhere in the USPS system on it's way to @jjrichar but we hope to have some results soon. John from upthread is reviewing the CNC housing design to ensure we aren't including unneeded complexity that will increase cost. We think we are close on the CNC CAD and I'm going to order some printed nylon housings using that CAD model as test articles. @stjoh has graciously offered to perform a test fit on a 911 PDK (everything so far has been on a Cayman/Boxster PDK) so that is coming up also.
01-14-2023, 02:13 PM
