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I'm on board with buying units for a transmission I don't even own. As I love the problem solving.
But also, let's not begrudge anyone or company that is out to make a profit. We all wish to profit. As we should. It is the moral way to be.
I sell medical equipment, and let me tell you, we get crushed on margin. I get crushed by the company and the facilities.
We should be making profit. What is fair? What ever the market will allow. Takes two parties to consent.
Cw
Absolutely no disagreement on that. Running a business is not about charity but about making money. But is the part pictured below priced at $20,000 a reasonable profit margin? As someone said, it probably costs Porsche somewhere around $200.
The reason it's a $20,000 part is that Porsche won't sell that part to anyone including their own dealerships so the only option if that part fails is full replacement of the whole PDK. The PDK with the failed sensor is shipped to Germany where it's "rebuilt" with a new sensor and then sold for $20,000 (installed) to the next unlucky dude with a failed PDK due to a failed sensor.
Absolutely no disagreement on that. Running a business is not about charity but about making money. But is the part pictured below priced at $20,000 a reasonable profit margin? As someone said, it probably costs Porsche somewhere around $200.
The reason it's a $20,000 part is that Porsche won't sell that part to anyone including their own dealerships so the only option if that part fails is full replacement of the whole PDK. The PDK with the failed sensor is shipped to Germany where it's "rebuilt" with a new sensor and then sold for $20,000 (installed) to the next unlucky dude with a failed PDK due to a failed sensor.
I don't want to derail this awesome thread.
But if we ever cross paths, I'll discuss over a bourbon!
But if we ever cross paths, I'll discuss over a bourbon!
Cw
Yeah sorry about that, my venting was getting things off track. There's some backstory that I can't really talk about yet (for a number of reasons) that has me really annoyed but I need to stay focused.
Good questions Noah regarding the machining costs and we are looking into it. One thing I realized is the STEP file we submitted was optimized for printing and that may have been driving excessive cost into machining. We are getting that corrected and will resubmit in addition to shopping it around. As to Wayne's comments, let's hold off until I'm sure the housing costs are solid as we should be able to nail that down in a week or two. As to GoFundMe it sounds good in principle but I'm really not the kind of guy who walks around hat in hand. I'm engineering, not marketing. If someone has background here and wants to participate shoot me a PM.
In all honesty, one of the appeals of printing is that the Bambu Lab X1C is just such an incredibly cool and capable machine (only $1200!!) and I need a good excuse to justify the cost of a new toy to my wife ("it's for the good of the community, honey"). That being said, if costs are anywhere close to printing then machined aluminum seems like a clear favorite.
I've been wondering what is the worldwide Total Addressable Market (TAM) for a replacement distance-sensor in this generation of PDK transmission.
So I though I'd do some rough back of the envelop calculations using the time honored methods of SWAG'ing, man-math, biased-assumptions, etc.. - and came up with a ball park number of 1.2K units/annum based on the following:
...
The addressable models for this generation of PDK are the 981, 987.2, 991.x and 997.2
Yeah sorry about that, my venting was getting things off track. There's some backstory that I can't really talk about yet (for a number of reasons) that has me really annoyed but I need to stay focused.
Good questions Noah regarding the machining costs and we are looking into it. One thing I realized is the STEP file we submitted was optimized for printing and that may have been driving excessive cost into machining.
Finding the right person at the right shop can make all the difference. The first time I ever submitted a front panel design, I needed a large amount of metal removed but also a relatively fine level of detail. The shop quoted an insanely high price, but the ops manager told me to sit down for a minute while he tinkered with the file. He was able to divide the work into separate coarse and fine tool paths that saved a lot of time and money. If I recall correctly the price was half as much by the time he was done. I would have had no clue.
In all honesty, one of the appeals of printing is that the Bambu Lab X1C is just such an incredibly cool and capable machine (only $1200!!) and I need a good excuse to justify the cost of a new toy to my wife ("it's for the good of the community, honey"). That being said, if costs are anywhere close to printing then machined aluminum seems like a clear favorite.
Understood all too well, and the speed sensor does make a strong argument that the distance sensor doesn't really need an aluminum housing. I don't think I've seen anybody mention failures of that part. Just saying that if it were me, not being a materials guy, I'd be inclined to go with the safest choice. I would feel good about saving 90% off the price from other vendors, but I'd freel just as good about saving 75%. Not a huge deal either way, just one (unqualified) opinion.
@cwheeler Appreciate your comments. I'm good with profit too, businesses without one don't last long. My issue is 1) with Porsche's "no repair" policy and 2) with $2k aftermarket price tags for what is reasonably a $500 part tops. Was just kidding with the Communist Manifesto crack.
Great insight, I can't recall but I'm guessing you must be an engineer too as virtually everyone of those scenarios went through my head. (In particular the piece of plastic breaking off and getting ground up in the gears.) It's our job to visualize what can go wrong and prevent it. What if this happened, what if that happened?
In all honesty though, I think those are mainly perceived risks rather than real risks. The chemical, mechanical, and thermal properties of these engineered plastics are well understood as they've been around quite a while now. I'm not a material properties expert though, and would welcome input from someone that is. Who knows why ZF didn't use it but it may just have been corporate conservativism in a part designed fifteen years ago. All that being said, perception is often reality though, and if people are afraid to use it what's the point of making it?
The problem though is that we'll need at least a $5k buy to get to the sweet spot on the aluminum housing curve. If we can get 50 people to pony up $100 each then we are golden, but I'm not going to put out $5k and potentially get stuck with a bunch of unused housings. If I was a business selling these at $2k a pop then it would be a different story. But I'm not and won't be.
So will people be prepared to try a unit made of an HTN-CF housing? Depends on their risk tolerance and cheapness. People went with an unproven $2k aftermarket distance sensor because they didn't want to pay for a remanufactured transmission so there is precedence. Will they go with a $125 HTN-CF distance sensor rather than a $2k unit make of aluminum? I'm thinking they will, particularly in older cars, but who knows. Maybe there's a demand for both versions. As I mentioned even in small quantities a machined version is still way cheaper than a $2k aftermarket unit (but at maybe $700 much more expensive than a HTN-CF version). Lots to think about but I really appreciate your feedback.
PV, I am glad to see this coming to fruition after following the thread for nearly three years. For a brand that built its reputation on motorsports, and how it particularly brags about how many 911s still on the road today, it is sad to see how Porsche has treated PDK repairs as a cash grab. From time to time there's a need for "stick it to the man" if a groundbreaking development is the ultimate goal. Sign me up for any crowd-funding efforts, or any funding for that matter. Thanks for all you've done.
I think a Go Fund Me route is perfectly viable and not you just looking for a hand out. We're the ones suggesting it not you. We know you're not getting rich doing this and you have put an extraordinary amount of time and resources in the PDK thread and your distance sensor. No need to cover all of the costs yourself when you have plenty of fellow Rennlisters willing to help out. We may not have the time, resources, or the know how but we all have a couple bucks. Think of it as seed money, to make this a viable project. We're all definitely pulling for you and would like to help if we can.
Crowdfunding is as much about advertising than about funding. It (ideally) solves both problems at once, which is a big deal if you're just getting started in a new line of business.
Even if you don't need the money, it's worth considering.
Thanks for the feedback and very interesting numbers Karl.
I have zero desire to start a business-like enterprise on this here. I'm an engineering manager, not a salesman, have a good job, and can't complain financially. My sole desire is to provide people an option that introduces market forces which will hopefully make PDK repairs less costly for everyone involved. (Well plus I like a challenge and figuring things out.) Not only for the distance sensor, but also possibly a speed sensor, and hopefully the labor repair costs also. Ideally we get to the point where your corner garage can do these repairs. That's why I'm apprehensive about GoFundMe, it's not that I can't or I won't, but it's just not my thing.
We'll see where this goes and how people feel once we have a working unit in a car. It's all hand-waving at this point but should be pretty tangible in a few weeks.
Some new photos, please excuse the poor quality as I took them with my phone. Here's the prototype PWB, this is the bottom side that faces the housing.
Here's the PWB in the printed ABS housing with a temporary harness (for testing) installed. I have one more update on the PWB as this version has an interference issue with the alignment pin holes (holes seen on the back wall). Cayman/Boxter uses the other side for the pins so it's fine for that, but I need to notch the PWB and increase wall thickness for the 911.
Next step is programming/test, after that installing the permanent harness and potting. Then it's off to Australia for a drive test.
I’m an indy who services these cars for a living, and is sick and tired of being told what I can and cannot repair, parts I can or cannot purchase, or just being relegated to the R&R robots (replace everything) and is also tired of telling his customers to avoid PDK’s like the plague because of the information lockout and lack of aftermarket support. So I’m excited for this. So much so I subscribed to Rennlist. This is my first post.
I’m an indy who services these cars for a living, and is sick and tired of being told what I can and cannot repair, parts I can or cannot purchase, or just being relegated to the R&R robots (replace everything) and is also tired of telling his customers to avoid PDK’s like the plague because of the information lockout and lack of aftermarket support. So I’m excited for this. So much so I subscribed to Rennlist. This is my first post.
Welcome. Where are you located? Can you give us some background?
OP here are the small 997 Cup Holder Hinge pieces a fellow RL member made on his 3-D printer. He offered them for sale a couple of years ago and I bought a few.
They are stronger than the originals and only negative feedback was that the center metal pin's length may have to be filed down a tiny bit.
This 3-D piece saved $300 on purchasing the complete used cup holder when the original hinge piece breaks.
I’m an indy who services these cars for a living, and is sick and tired of being told what I can and cannot repair, parts I can or cannot purchase, or just being relegated to the R&R robots (replace everything) and is also tired of telling his customers to avoid PDK’s like the plague because of the information lockout and lack of aftermarket support. So I’m excited for this. So much so I subscribed to Rennlist. This is my first post.
Welcome to the forum. I'm sure you'll be providing plenty of useful information for all who come here regularly. And with any luck you may even get some useful feedback from owners with problems.
As for the PDK, take it from someone with two PDK failures requiring full replacements. Both due to failed distance sensors. According to both techs and service advisors at my local dealership, the sensor costs a small fraction of full replacement but Porsche refuses to sell the sensor to anyone including their own dealerships. Porsche has always been about stretching their profit margin to the breaking point and this is a good example of that. Why sell an inexpensive electronic part to dealerships and indys if you can sell a $20,000 rebuilt PDK instead to someone who has no other choice.
12-30-2022, 05:06 AM
