Jack667

hey Rennlisters -
posting here as FYI and also interested in any thoughts on this mess

Per my post in the DIY thread, I installed Wevo engine mounts 8.5 years ago and I've always liked them. My car has a good bit of suspension work, all done about 10 years and about 100k miles ago. Over the past year or two, the suspension has seemed creaky and clunky and I've been trying to figure it out. I took it to a respected indy shop and the dealer and they both said all seems fine. I fixed the creaking on my own with some white lithium spray grease but I couldn't figure out the clunking. I decided to swap back to stock engine mounts bc of that Jake Raby thread, so just put a new pair in yesterday. Inspecting the Wevos, it looks like the passenger side mount got compromised - see photos below. I added a 3rd one with flashlight to highlight the issue, where the rubber ring seems to be separated.


see that separation on the right side of the one on the right?

There's more separation here, notable on the left side of the one on the right

here's another view of that with more light, but maybe the angle isn't as good, to see how far off it is
==========
So - fyi about these mounts. Maybe I should have checked the torque of the bolts periodically - the lower 18MM one on the passenger side seemed to come off fairly easily - maybe not quite 60lbs but no way to know as I loosened it. Or maybe these have a lifespan to consider / maybe they should be removed and inspected every few years or so???

Another thing - more noticeable on the driver side when installing the new OEM mounts - but would apply to any mount install - when I was torquing the 18MM lower bolt, I was surprised at how flimsy the chassis point seemed to be. Not sure if that's an issue for me, or more of a typical thing. The lower mounting point for the engine mount seems to be a thin piece of metal squared off with a fair amount of give to it. Is that a design 'feature' to allow for some engineered flex?

edit - adding in that the the new OEM mounts tamed NVH a bit at idle and throughout rev range and also seems to smooth things out a bit with the clunkiness and suspension issues, but enough still remains to be a concern

I have an appointment with the dealer in a few weeks to have them do a road test to see what I mean about the clunky rumble over rough pavement, and to take a look underneath at the mount location and the overall suspension. Let me know if anyone has any thoughts in the meantime


TIA - Jack

ABNJOE

Interested in this outcome. Please keep us posted.

Thank you!

voiceprint1

I would also consider looking at the bushings in the rear as well, at 100k you might look at control arms and sway bar links for signs of movement.

Jack667

I did replace rear sway bar bushings - super easy and inexpensive. Not sure that helped, but - as you say - there might be some other issue going on. Sway bar links are RSS adjustable and seem like they're ok. Control arms are stock front and rear lower. Rear upper are also RSS adjustable. I guess could be rear LCA... I don't want to replace anything expensive as a guess though

Petza914

The clunk is likely the foam in the rear suspension top mount being worn out. Also check your transmission mounts. The Function First inserts are a nice upgrade to restore property rigidity to the OEM rubber mounts as long as they're not already torn. I used the Orange Street density ones.

As far as the engine mounts, yea, that right one is no good. The lower bolt torques the engine carrier crossbrace to the mount. Make sure the square on the underside of the motor mount properly went into the square on the engine carrier crossbrace. If not, as you torque it, you'll bend the crossbrace metal and it will have that flimsy feeling you describe as it's being torqued down.


This is the transmission mount for a MT. Tips are different. The rubber connection pieces inside the mount need to not be torn in order to use the FF inserts

Close up of rubber that still has its integrity

I applied some silicone grease to the FF mounts before inserting them in so they slid into the recesses od the OEM rubber mount properly.

FF mounts installed. At your mileage, the side plates of your foam mounts will either crumble away or are already gone.



If you (or someone else) happens to have a Tiptronic trans, I have a brand new pair of Torque Solutions Street grade mounts I'll sell at a discount that I ordered by mistake.

Jack667

Petza - I was hoping you would chime in. When you say 'rear suspension top mount', is that the top of the shock, like the shock mount? Any chance that's a reasonable DIY? I haven't done any suspension work to speak of but I just bought a spring compressor and plan on attempting lowering springs for my son's Mini

I did buy an orange FF trans mount a while back and never installed it. I guess I should try that out and see if it helps.

In the meantime, as I'm driving around with stock mounts, I can really sense the improvement over the failed wevo. I do think they were seated properly. Maybe I'll get under and get some photos or even video of that issue with the flimsy chassis part just below the mount.


sitting on a shelf in the garage...

Petza914

Yes, the top mount that holds the shock to the car with the 3 bolts that the suck piston also passes through.

Replacing them on the Porsche won't be any different than what you're planning to do on the mini.

If your car is an S with the Bose deck subwoofer, you'll have to remove that to gain access to the shock top mount bolts. Not hard really, just a bit of a pain working in the cramped back seat.

Once you have access to the top nuts, BEFORE LOOSENING THEM, circle around the nut flanges or washers so you can put the top mounts back in the same place, as there play in this holes I believe and it will effect your alignment / suspension geometry.

Have someone hold the shock from next to the car as you remove the 3 nuts from inside the car so it doesn't swing down and hit the fender. Once you get the 3 top mount nuts off you should be able to rock the whole shock assembly down far enough to clear the fender and not have to take the bottom loose. Put your spring compressors on it and tighten them alternating one side and then the other until the spring is no longer pressing on the underside of the top mount (no tension for when you take the shock top nut off). Then use one of those Max Axxess socket sets where the sockets are driven by perimeter gears leaving a hole in the center (Lowe's, Craftsman, etc) This let's you use the socket on the shock nut while holding the center of the shock Piston with an Allen or torx wrench (don't recall which it is) and that keeps you from spinning the shock piston, which isn't good for the seals. Never try to hold the shock piston with vice grips or pliers to get the top nut off. Any burr you put on the polished piston will ruin the shock seal if it goes past it under compression.

Get the top nut off, remember the order and orientation of the washers and top mount, replace the old one with the new one, put it back together and try to get the top nut torque close to the spec using the ratchet by feel while holding the shock piston with the Allen wrench again so it doesn't rotate.

groovzilla

Great information. It amazes me how subtle some of the issues are that cause noise or leaking.
Finding that issue with engine mount seems like something so hard to locate especially considering engine is compressing the mount when investigating.
Thx for the write up.
...Also thanks Pete for the transmission mount insert information.
Will be assessing both the engine mounts and transmission mounts this spring.

Petza914

Actually the 911 engine hangs from the mounts rather than sits.on them like with most traditional motor mounts, so the engine load probably made it easier to see the separation and deflection, not harder.

groovzilla

I was under impression the mount was compressed even though engine hung from mount. No idea the mount got pulled apart when under load.

Jack667

Petza - super helpful info. What are your thoughts on the actual shock mount parts? OEM, Elephant, or ???

I've been looking at the stuff from Elephant for a while but haven't bought anything yet. One concern I'd have, looking at your excellent DIY steps, would be whether they would drop into the same footprint as the old OEM mounts - where you're suggesting to mark with a sharpie... Here's the rear shock mount info: https://www.elephantracing.com/porsc...t-for-996-997/

Petza914

If changing the top mounts to a different type you'll want to do an alignment afterwards. I removed all rubber from my suspension and have the complete RSS Tarmac Series Stage 2 setup. With nothing wearing or deflecting, I haven't had to reo my alignment since 2014. I have the Tarett monoball top mounts, but other companies make nice products too like the Elephant ones you show and Champion. I went with Tarett because I was also installing a GT3 cargraphic Airlift at the same time and their mounts were compatible with all 997 suspensions so I knew they would work as Ira helped verify that with me as we talked through the project

Jack667

That's such a nice setup! I just have damptronics, and RSS Front/Rear sways and drop links, rear dog bones and toe kit, and everything else is stock. (also have DSC PASM box...)
Might be best for me to just replace stock with stock... I'll call Elephant and chat with them.

and I suppose I should do the tranny mount first since I have it, and then see how things are at that point before taking the next step.

Petza914

Yep, that's what I'd do, but your clunk is probably the rear top mounts.

Jack667

Function First inserts are inserted. Pretty cool effects - notchier shifter, more vibration/rumble at idle, seems more responsive, etc. I think it's going to be positive for me. Clunkiness is still present. Earlier today, I ordered the Elephant rear shock mounts and plan to put those in when they arrive. Hoping that solves it, and then if it's successful overall, I'll do the front camber plates, but I don't think I need the adjustment capability.