Flat6 Innovations

Yep, it'll see corrosive wear, because the non- driving owner won't change the oil every 6 months.

Doug H

Perhaps it has toned down here lately, but not so much a few years ago. Saw and read about many getting persuaded to get rebuilds on engines that ran perfectly fine just because they were persuaded to scope out of fear. As you mention, the pressure or sales pitch then becomes do it now or it will get really bad and cost even more. People like Pete and others on here have seen through that and are not rushing out to F6 even though In know Pete has a relationship with Jake.

Perhaps the end of 2019 there was a black and silver car in a F6 video. The black car was 100% asymptomatic and in for a rebuild. Jake said in that video, and I am essentially paraphrasing out of memory that ain't so good these days, that the 997.1 motor was shyte, his motor was great, get his motor as his motor was what the car deserved when leaving the factory.

I actually kind of agree with you 100% figure and Flat 6's position that the M97 motor is shyte as I have been saying since 2016 on here I would never touch a 997.1 because what Porsche techs told me about the M96/97 in 2016. If I had one, however, I would drive it like I stole it, service it properly, step away from here and enjoy it. If it tanks, I damn sure would not put a $30k engine in $40k car. I would sell it as a roller if and when it stopped running and apply that toward a 997tt or a 997.2.

Sporty

eehh I disagree, but from my perspective only. I am the original owner of my manual base C2 with 43 k miles on it which has brought me joy over the last 16yrs . I maintain it to the tee, redline it regularly, it sounds perfect, wails like a banshee when on it, runs smoothly and is plenty fast enough for me and to me looks cool with the wheel and stance set up i have. I have driven the newer ones and yes they are nice, faster, but just not the same feel, especially if automatic(PDK). I paid $71k all in with tax for my car brand new in 2005. and have not had any major repairs required. In a few years I may decide to drop in a FSI 4.0 or 4,3; spend the $25-50K and have a special "bad ***" car. It wont owe me anything iat that point if i decide to do that. Any d-bag with money(including me) can go out and buy a $200K plus turbo S or 992. But as someone once said "its not a matter of wealth that one displays but rather style" A 997 with a FSI motor = style.

Agreed though, if you spend $35k - 60K plus and need to spend 25K on a rebuild shortly thereafter, then yes, its a shytty situation and shame on Porsche for that.

groovzilla

I miss the old 996 Forum when it was at the height of the IMS worry wart meltdown.
These 997 Forum Bore Scoring Threads are becoming quite entertaining.

Wayne Smith

I can't see this ever reaching the "It's been a good week in the 996 Forum" level of amusement!!!

ZuffenZeus

Well, not trying to stir the pot nor rattle anyone's cage here, but "inevitable" may have been too strong of a word in this context. I was speaking specifically about those that have all the variables in the borescoring equation that Jake Raby mentions. Obviously, borescoring can be mitigated as shown in cars like Groov's latest 997. Personally, if people would take Jake's advice on maintaining their cars, I'm sure a lot less would suffer serious engine failures. I still find it surprising that lots of people don't change their oil by time-in-service. There was one reported on the 996 forum where an owner hadn't changed the oil in 5 years because he hadn't driven it much.

Oh well.

coaldrag413

So... you were told your engine was fine first hand from a Porsche Mechanic who scoped your cylinders and you... don't accept his observations to the point you consulted a forum?

I mean... it's not your fault. This overblown bore-scoring hysteria is precisely the reason the 997.1 goes for less than it's .2 counterpart, but come on man. Be happy! You've got a clean bill of health!

Not to downplay the professionalism of some of the 3rd party engine rebuilders, but they sort of have an interest in giving people bad news about their engines.

I agree with you Groove. It really has become a silly topic. I just imagine the average first-time 997.1 buyer, rocking back and forth in their garage, wringing their hands and staring at their ignition keys afraid to start it up. I guess I should be thankful for the bore-scoring drama though, it allowed a peasant like me to afford my dream car.

linderpat

So nobody can answer my question about the real percentage of failures due to bore scoring? We have a pretty good idea about IMS failures - being +/- in the 10% range. I have yet to see a statistic on bore scoring. Maybe it is out there in one of Jake's videos, but I have not looked for it.

ZuffenZeus

How would anyone get that "real percentage" of failures? Is it even possible? Maybe a random sample of cars would give some idea of the problem.

Even the whole 10% IMS bearing failure number is outdated. It was based on the findings of the class-action lawsuit, but that can't be true today. No one knows an exact number, but what we do know based on retrofit sales, that shops and owners are changing out the bearings proactively.

Now, on the other hand, Jake Raby has stated that bore scoring was the #1 mode of failure long before the IMS problem began to surface. He also states that the majority of the engines that they reconstruct have some level cylinder bore scoring and have for many years. Hartech says the same thing. Raby networks with hundreds of Porsche mechanics and they're all seeing the same thing. To date, the engines that are consistently not showing signs of scoring are the GT2, GT3, and Turbo cars with nikasil and base models Boxster/Cayman.

linderpat

well without data that is reliable and not anecdotal from a couple of sources whose business model is to rebuild and sell engines, I am suspect of the heightened hysteria surrounding this issue on the forums (especially this one). My sources include Porsche dealerships and reputable indy shops, who tell me these issues are not nearly as prevalent as these forums tend to push. Of course you don't know my sources because they don't post on forums, so you may dismiss them out of hand or otherwise find them suspect. I still go back to my original assertion - if I have Porsche certified mechanics telling me my engine is fine, and my bores are fine, then that's it. I'm done. Anything else is secondary guessing by guys who are generally well informed, but not Porsche certified mechanics and did not actually look at the engine in question. Flame away

Mike Murphy

It’s interesting, because one of the top Porsche Indy shops in Chicagoland asked me if I changed my ‘99’s IMSB yet. I said, ‘no, it’s a double-row,’ and he said, ‘you should change it ASAP.’ He said all they see are failures, all day long.

Yet, most would argue the double-row is closer to 1-2% failure rate.

Optionman1

"My sources include Porsche dealerships and reputable indy shops, who tell me these issues are not nearly as prevalent as these forums tend to push."

Isn't this comment "without data and anecdotal"?

Flat6 Innovations

FYI- I have produced exactly ONE video about the 997.2 (and later) engine, and that video was focused around the 997.2 currently owned by @Optionman1 after it experienced engine failure due to bore scoring.

I have started zero threads, on zero forums about the 997.2 and later engines. my posts about these engines have been limited, and I have purposely not shared any information about these engines to date. My classes about these engines have also been limited, and open only to professional technicians at this point.

In other words I have done everything I possibly can to refrain from being the evil vendor that people want me to be. They want to blame everything on me, and my direct experiences that I have shared. If someone's car loses value (because of anything) it is my fault for being a vendor that solves problems, and shares my experiences first hand. Being direct, and truthful makes me an easy target, or at least it did with the M9X series of engines.

The last time I checked my queue for an engine was 19 months long, and I cancelled all my advertisements 2 years ago. I turn more work down than we accept, and I don't need, or want the business that I **could** get by creating fear in this marketplace.

Bruce In Philly

2009 C2S 174K miles

"My sources include Porsche dealerships and reputable indy shops, who tell me these issues are not nearly as prevalent as these forums tend to push."

What the heck, thought I would throw a flamer into this. My source... a retired Porsche shop foreman... said these M96/M97 engines were built cheap and he does not trust them. Is my source bigger than your source? I dunno. I just know that I had two blow on me. Good? Evil? We are talking about statistical probabilities here. I will never own one again.

Peace
Bruce in Philly (now Atlanta)

ZuffenZeus

Bruce... you need to request your RL user name to be changed to "Bruce in Hotlanta"