Mike Murphy

Maybe it’s not the same. I thought early onset of bore scoring could at least allow an owner to extend the rebuild for several years, use different oil, etc. But you’re right, once scoring starts, it’s like a thread that unravels and cannot be undone.

Doug H

If a Porsche technician said cool, I would defer to the Porsche technician and NOT the guy or guys that benefit $25k plus by rebuilding a perfectly good running, asymptomatic engine.

The medical analogy MAY (not completely sure) be more like MRI findings on the spine of a 50 or 60 plus year old. There is always degenerative changes in anyone's spine over 50 ish, but no way are they going to cut on you or operate on your spine if you are asymptomatic unless they are money grubbers that have no regard for the standard of care.

How many other brands out there show signs of scoring in 15 to 20 year old cars although they have not been conditioned to scope and rebuild asymptomatic engines out of fear. Yeah, there is a problem with M996/997 engine designs, but even Pete (Petra997) who became pretty friendly with one of the score rebuilder advocates is not rebuilding his engine showing some slight signs of scoring. This does not seem to be the case with others who perhaps have not developed a more personal relationship with some of those that rebuild.

To rebuild or panic or not rebuild or panic. I dunno, but I would always defer to a Porsche certified mechanic at a dealership as I have pretty much had nothing but consistent, good advice and great treatment for over 30 years of owning 30 to 40 911s . . . completely lost count actually. I, however, have gotten burned by Indies bad several times over the years.

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Optionman1

People make is sound like the engine rebuilders have Jedi like powers to "talk you into getting a $25k rebuild". You have visual documentation of a potential problem. You can choose to ignore it or you can get the best advice you can get and then make your own decision. From the advice some have given here I should never go to a Porsche dealership because they might "talk me into buying a new 911". Maybe they would suggest talking to a soothsayer, palm reader, etc.

Doug H

Sadly, many have rebuilt perfectly good running and symptomatic engines and many have been encouraged to get their engines scoped and to rebuild even when no issues what so ever. The encouraging to purchase a new car is not remotely the same as someone convincing you your engine is toast, needs a rebuild and it would be unethical to sell it.

Optionman1

Can you provide any specifics to back up your assertions? Of the “‘many have rebuilt perfectly good running and (a)symptomatic engines” can you name anyone specifically or direct me to posts discussing their rebuilds? I’m assuming you aren’t talking about strictly elective rebuilds but rather owners “talked into” believing they have no other option.

As for an owner selling a car after they bore scope it and then consciously fail to disclose the results to a potential purchaser, YES I believe that is unethical.

I don’t doubt there are unscrupulous engine builders, there are almost certainly unscrupulous people in every profession. That said, getting advice from well respected and knowledgeable builders/mechanics is never a bad idea. Nobody’s word is gospel, its just advice. Accept it or not, but never be afraid to seek it out

Fullyield

The importance of doing regular used oil analysis for your engine is as important as analyzing an annual blood draw for your health.The reason to do both is to look for indicators of future problems whether it be fuel dilution or diabetes.

linderpat

One thing is for sure, there are a vast, much greater number of P-car owners who never go on the forums, many of whom haven't even heard of the IMS let alone bore scoring, and obliviously drive and enjoy their cars for years. In my PCA region, most never go to rennlist, 6-Speed, the bird, etc. I am amazed that just last Saturday, I had a conversation with a guy who is selling his '05 997 S (parked next to me at a PVGP event), and he never heard of the IMS issue, and didn't know what it was. He never heard of bore scoring either (or those ubiquitous calls for DME readings). He is typical. Most go to the dealer and rely on what the dealer says. I prefer my indy, and my own inspections, and I do think knowledge is power. I just think over worrying is not productive, as it creates a false sense of doom, which sucks out the enjoyment factor. There is not a single hi-end, sports car niche model made by any manufacturer that does not have some issue or another. Maybe the old NSX's (Hondas). It's only a matter of time before we learn that 991's have a deadly engine disease destined to turn them all into coffee tables.

So I'll reiterate what I said before, take comfort in the thorough inspection your dealer gave you, do the regular periodic stuff, and relax and enjoy the car - it is a great car, and you'll appreciate it more every time you drive it.

PV997

This is exactly my point above. Some people enjoy worrying for whatever reason and I guess that's just human nature. Two things are true though; 1) worrying is counter-productive, unhealthy, and never solved a problem and 2) there is no "treatment" for bore scoring and no benefit to early diagnosis. That makes it pointless IMO.

Who knows if people are actually rebuilding health engines, maybe they are maybe they aren't. But the potential is there and it wouldn't be if people didn't go looking for trouble when there are no symptoms. There's a long history in sales of using fear to sell people things they don't actually need.

Optionman1

I agree that worrying is counter productive etc, but I disagree on "no benefit to early diagnosis". Do you not thing UOA are worthwhile? If not to diagnose a potential problem early why else would anyone do them? I've never seen any threads claiming UOA are sold by unscrupulous firms seeking to fear monger and scare people in spending $.

PV997

No problem with UOA, I think it's very valuable. I'm talking about bore scoping perfectly fine engines when there are no symptoms (which started this thread). If you find scoring there is absolutely nothing you can do to treat it, so what's the point? On the other hand there may be innocuous marks that can be misinterpreted as scoring that cause personal stress and lead to unneeded repairs. So there is risk but absolutely no benefit. There is no upside to bore scoping a symptom-free engine unless it's part of a sale.

ZuffenZeus

You guys are making some good points. Jake Raby and I have tried to communicate through our Focus On: Bore Scoring series on YouTube that while cylinder bore scoring is inevitable for 997 Carrera engines, the problem can be mitigated with a good preventative regimen. Being proactive in examining the cylinder health BEFORE you show signs of symptoms is a wiser choice over waiting until all hell breaks loose. Why? Because when you begin losing the piston skirt coating and the piston comes in contact with the cylinder bore, it begins shedding metal like a cheese grater. Metal-laden oil can cause damage to all internal engine components BEFORE you start showing the classic symptoms of bore scoring. Jake calls it liquid sandpaper for a reason. While some people believe that metal-laden oil will get filtered and not harm the engine, Jake Raby has seen a different scenario over the past 20+ years with these engines. Our bore scoring series is not intended to cause worry, but to bring public awareness to the issue so that owners can take proactive steps in keeping these great cars alive and on the road.

Flat6 Innovations

95% of people that suffer bore scoring have the symptoms before they even know what it is.. We did the video series to help these people when they are blind sighted by an issue they never heard of. I send people tp the videos, the videos don't send people to me.
Most of the time they've already changed lifters, and etc because the shop doing the work assumed the sound was in the valve train.

The elective jobs that we get here at FSI aren't from people being worried. These jobs come from people that want to turn a 300HP car, into a 400HP car, or even more than that. The issues get taken care of along the way, and it is a win- win scenario to go fast, and live long.

There's no fear in fact. I share what I experience every day of my life, some people listen, some people deny. Another group listens to reply, rather than listening to learn. This is the problem with the 21st Century human. It will only get worse.

linderpat

Good points. What is the percentage of 997’s that will suffer bore scoring?

Fahrer

According to b3freak it is inevitable which means 100% ......seriously?

Optionman1

Given enough time and usage that's probably correct, whether it happens during an owner's lifetime is another matter. A car never driven will never have any wear.