Prairiedawg

What is old is new again. With the demand for, outpacing the supply for a Manual 997.2 we've seen the values for these cars going nuts. The GTS cars are no exception and seem to be increasing faster than the rest. That made me think, "how many of them are there?" I know this question has been asked ad nauseum but it's always been speculation about "20%". Where does this number come from? Ihave never seen any real proof of any numbers one way or another. I ask this because I wonder, are these cars in a bubble? Of course you say, they're all in a bubble now with all the stimulus money, Fed printing, and peoples excess pent up reserves. But the question is legitimate, are the 6 speed GTS cars in a bubble? I don't think so.

I don't think that many were made. I looked up the numbers for GTS cars on Vinanalytics.com. It gives you the sequence number of any given VIN. For instance In have a 2012 Cab. It is 124/222. It was the 124th GTS made for that model year. I looked up all the GTs models including the 4GTS cars. Here's what I came up with. Coupes- 2011, 245. 2012, 325. Cabriolets- 2011, 245. 2012, 222. 4GTS, 271. 4GTS Cab, 42. These are U.S. production numbers. Canadian imports are unknown but I did find there were 30 2011 coupes, probably much less numbers of Cabs. The US numbers total 570 coupes and 467 Cabriolets That's a little over 1000 GTS' or 1350 if you include the 4GTS cars.

How many manuals were sold here? Estimates are from 10-20 percent. That makes it 57-114 coupes, 47-94 Cabs and 31-60 4GTS. That's not a lot. The 997 GTS I think is a bit more special that it is now on other models that they slap that designation on. Very low production numbers combined with other spiffs like the power kit etc. and you have something a bit special. Cut those numbers down by 80-90 percent and you have something quite rare. You could have as few as 100 cars on the low end or 250 on the high end. That's not a lot. They only built 250 Sport Classics.

In 2011 when the GTS was released, The PDK was all the rage. It was great (still is) and the new kid on the block. The 6 speed was the archaic way your grandfather drove a car. It was praised by all the automobile magazines, Jay Leno did a special on it. Case in point, My car- before I bought, it sat on a Porsche dealers lot for four months before they sent it to AUCTION in 2012. It is Speed Yellow, which isn't for everyone but was a beautiful example and perfectly spec'd. It was a year old and had 4500 miles on it. It wasn't even broken in yet. It was the beautiful girl at the ball and nobody wanted to dance with her. it was sent to auction because it wasn't moving and was eventually picked up by another Porsche dealer and sold as a CPO, twice actually. Now, everyone raves about this car. In 2012 nobody wanted it, it was at a large east coast P dealer.

All this brings me to my point, in 2012 an almost unicorn spec 6 speed (yes, I know that word is overused but I stand by it regarding my car) was unwanted by the masses. The new 991's were out with their next generation in technology and performance. The car magazines ooh'd and ahh'd over them and the manual transmission was outdated and so generations ago. If nobody wanted them in July of 2012, how many were ordered in late 2010 through 2011?

Upscale Audio

I've never used vinanalytics that way. Cool stuff!!

I'm not sure about the worldwide numbers because of the ever-mysterious "2010.2R" listings on Howtoporsche.com Howtoporsche I've never figured out what that is. Right-hand drive? Why aren't there RHD 4GTS then?

This is worldwide, not just North America, but what the hell.

Here's their count for all GTS. Please note it appears that cars sold as 2012's may have been 2011's in these records, since my car is a 2012.

2010 Carrera GTS Coupe 2
2010.2 R Carrera GTS Coupe 389
2011 Carrera GTS Coupe 2265

Total 2656


2010 Carrera GTS Cabriolet 1
2010.2 R Carrera GTS Cabriolet 270
2011 Carrera GTS Cabriolet 1542

Total 1813


2011 Carrera 4 GTS Coupe 885
2012 Carrera 4 GTS Coupe 436

Total 1321

2011 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet 803
2012 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet 354

Total 1157



So with coupes worldwide being 2656 that's pretty low.

Upscale Audio

Here's some specs on transmission choices and why Porsche thought the manual would be dead by now

Porsche Engineer Predicts Manual-Transmission 911 Could Die by 2020

sandwedge

Never heard of the "R" designation either so I have no idea what it means. Nor have I heard of a 2010 997 GTS for that matter. Always thought the official introduction year for the GTS was 2011 even though I'm sure the first ones were built late 2010. Never saw a 2010 997 GTS for sale though.

Upscale Audio

Correct...these are production years, not model years. According to the list there are no 2012 GTS, but that's because the 2012's were built in 2011.

sandwedge

I've said this before and it's just another opinion but perhaps worth repeating for what it's worth given your speculation. As I see it there are two separate markets for the 997, 991 and 992. Buyers who with the introduction of the PDK have zero interest in a manual and buyers who have zero interest in a PDK car. Must be a manual or they're not buying.

So yes, I think there may be a bubble involving a small percentage of buyers fighting over the small number of manual cars built. That's not a traditional bubble though. A traditional bubble at least how I recognize it is a large amount of buyers or better yet, the whole marketplace fighting over a hard to find item. I don't see that situation here. Porsche had plenty of time to figure out what the dealers were selling and what their customers were asking for and built cars based on that. Every article written about this point in the same direction. A dwindling demand for manuals, hence the small production numbers. Not just for GTS's but across the board starting with the 997.2 and continuing with the 991 and 992.

If there is a bubble I kind of see it as an artificial isolated bubble created by a very small number of buyers who don't like what a huge majority of buyers want and is therefore produced by the manufacturer in numbers matching the demand. Call it a bubble or whatever. A small number of buyers don't like what a huge majority likes. Not a typical definition of a bubble that I'm familiar with.

Two year old story but the trend is already in place:

GTSpure

I always enjoy re-seeing how rare the GTS is (and sometimes even more so than the GT3 997). Conclusion Save it and enjoy it!

BTW - GTS Coupe PDK This is the only Porsche 911 997 in the market that is Coupe, Rear-wheel drive, Wide body and PDK.
On the other hand, Manual models with Wide body, Rear-wheel drive, Coupe - can be found: GTS, GT2 / GT2RS/ GT3RS and SPORT CLASSIC.

Liste-Renn

Entertaining speculation about attributing 6MT 997 GTS recent valuation increases to low production numbers...

I do love that an owner can actually drive a 997 GTS and not be penalized some crazy amount per mile racked up- unlike other "bubble" appreciating cars. Ultimately,the joy of driving a car should outweigh the joy of it increasing in value. Those who flip cars, or treat them as a pure investment, are a whole different breed of 911 owner, IMO.

To me, the valuation threads on RL are not nearly as fun to read as those reflecting the joy of driving, racing, modifying or maintaining a 911. While I do stop and stare at my own from time to time, and appreciate a vehicle that is (somewhat) unique in not depreciating- it would not stir much passion, appreciation and respect if it never left the garage or storage facility. My own valuation is tied to what the car is capable of and how it makes me feel when exploring the performance envelope.

The 6MT is, indeed, a throwback to the days when a skilled human was a better gear selector than a machine. Those days are over. But being capable of expertly driving one is not simply tolerating the required effort or fighting progress. It is something else...maybe soul, for lack of a better term. Maybe nostalgia and heritage plays into it, as well. I am certainly not trading my 6MT for any 997 GTS PDK- and I love the PDK . Have one in my Macan GTS and it is the very best double clutch gearbox I have operated.

While the actual 6MT 997GTS production numbers are not known, it is safe to say that there are more buyers than cars available. Enjoy the "bubble" valuation and drive either transmission option car as if it is depreciating. No regrets down the road that way.

GTS Sully

Yep. My 2012 GTS Coupe was built in July 2011 yet given the 2012 model year.

Petza914

The model year stuff may have to do with releases in other countries. For example, the 957 generation Cayenne was released in Europe in 2007 as that model year, but you couldn't buy a 957 in the US until the 2008 model year. Maybe the GTS was similar - I have no idea.

Doug H

Perhaps 2010 R would be mid life 2011 997.2s. Were there not some updates in model year 2011 such as third radiator for pdk cooling and etc.

Upscale Audio

Those stories include newer cars. I would not care much for a manual on a 991 or 992. It just doesn't fit the same, and the truth is the PDK is bad-*** anyway. But...

A shift **** in a 997 feels like it is where God intended it. Most of the GTS I've seen for sale are PDK. Lately almost no manual coupes. It would be great to figure out just what the stats are for 997 manuals or in this case 997 GTS.

Does anyone here have a membership with pors9 ? There may be tools there.

Tcc1999

I wonder if the 10-20 percent estimate for manual transmissions has anything to do with the allocations dealers get. For the 2011/2012 GTS there were no shortages of PDK transmissions available but manuals were very hard to come by off the lot. The few that were available in 2011 were over spec’d and in either black or white. I paid more for an allocated build (but less than what was on a lot) and got what I wanted. I suspect lots of others did as well. As to the number of PDKs being offered, it’s simple to understand. On or around 2010 PAG stated it wanted to increase sales of 911s. You don’t do that by building a lot of manual transmission cars.

NC3Pedal

When the lease on my 2014 Boxster S 6 speed was close to expiring, I started shopping 911s. Main requirement was manual. I drove 991.1s and 991.2s and did not like the operation of the PDK converted into a 7 speed manual. I have been driving manuals for over 40 years and on these 991s I found myself getting into wrong gears on downshifts. The shifter felt vague. This has been commented in some reviews and I believe that in the 992 Porsche finally made the 7 speed into a good transmission. Thus, I searched and found a manual 2012 GTS Cab and bought in March of '18. I found it hours after it was posted on the Porsche dealer site (it had not even been detailed) and had to move quickly to purchase it since buyers were calling in (I was a repeat customer so that helped). I believe that GTS manuals (2 or 4) may just be in the hundreds given that the take rate was probably around 20%. BTW, I think I could (could) sell the car for easily $10-15K more than what I paid for it.

997.2GTS

I could not see that feature (sequence) - was that part of the paid service? I also have a 2012 (prod: 05-2011) GTS 6MT Cabrio (Guards Red) and the last 5 of my VIN is 54343, where do I fall, I wonder?